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Original poster

School Discipline

55 replies

WedgiesMum · 12/07/2004 18:02

Just going to drop this one in to see what response I get. Am quickly posting now at work and won't get back to it until this evening so please don't be offended if i don't reply until later.

At my DS's school if they do anything considered naughty a child will receive a 'naughty card'. This is then held by the Head until Friday assembly when their names are read out and they have to stand up in front of everyone. They then lose their playtime on Friday as well (and could possibly have had some other loss of priviledges when they committed the misdemeanor). They also have a certificate system whereby the 'best' child in each class gets a certificate in the same assembly and is praised by everyone.

I am not entirely comfortable with this and would seek your views. I am not sure whether I am so uncomfortable because DS has had a few cards and therefore the humilation in assembly, or if I am unhappy about it anyway (I rather think the latter), but am feeling sensitive about my reaction to things at the moment with school as I am not happy with quite a few of the ways in which DS is treated. Everyone and their parents know who has had a card - surely this is not a good thing??? Or am I just being over sensitive.

Thanks in advance for any advice/opinions.

WMx

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Tommy · 12/07/2004 23:41

This is unbelievable!!! they may as well put tall hats with a big "D" on them ont all the "naughty" children of the week. I cannot believe that in this is happening in a primary school - it is appalling I am a governor in a primary school and I would be VERY angry if this was going on there. Can you talk to the parent governor? Good luck - this is crazy and should be sorted out
(sorry - bit of a rant there - just completely incredulous)

cazzybabs · 12/07/2004 23:54

I just wanted to say I am shocked too. Children at this age don't want to be naughty - they want to be liked. And I do disagree with the school's system but I would also question why he is being naughty -ie is being streached enough/not enough, friendship issues, does he understand how he has to behave at school, does he know the rules and does he know he has to make the choice to follow them?

FairyMum · 12/07/2004 23:58

Shocking. Is this normal? Please tell me it isn't!

soyabean · 13/07/2004 00:24

I agree with all the other comments, and no I dont think it is normal Fairymum. Any primary schools I know of are keen to accentuate the positive, and I think this is completely counterprodiuctive. What a nightmare for a child waiting for the Friday assembly. I am a governor too and would be horrified if I heard that this kind of thing was happening in any of our classrooms, but for it to be institutionalised in this way, no I dont think it can be right. How do you feel about speaking to the head, will you be able to do it without getting upset? Good luck.

Original poster
WedgiesMum · 13/07/2004 00:37

DS - bright boy and is quite stretched, knows the rules and knows he shouldn't break them, and is making friends across several year groups too. What he does think is that there has to be justice - if someone hits him he will 'return the favour' to even out the score. He doesn't do unprovoked hitting it's always retaliation. He is very black and white about it. Also has low frustration tolerance and can't handle requests for quick information/explanation when he is frustrated or change agenda very quickly needs time to problem solve his way out of it. I feel they rush him too much in these situations, and that he is pre-judged as well, if something has happened it must have been deliberate (no benefit of the doubt, don't usually listen to his explanation etc etc, give a dog a bad name.......).

Just to add perspective, he is not the only one who gets these cards, obviously, but I think it's the principle of 'punishment' in this case and the method that really worries me rather than why he behaves in a way so that he will get a card. We are dealing with behaviour issues as well, in conjunction with the school - as I say it's this particular policy that I have my doubts about.

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Original poster
WedgiesMum · 13/07/2004 00:42

Have had it suggested to speak to parent governor - thanks dottee from Monday! - and may do so. Thanks for the support soyabean, not sure if I can confront the Head wihtout being upset, he is a 'mature' man with years of experience at the school, just about to retire. He can be a bit over powering, he told me off this morning for shouting at someone's child (mother was there but with back turned and this child - not yet at school - was deliberately kicking a group of children and making them cry, went to the mother, who I know, straight away and said what I'd done and she said 'thanks it's just what I'd have done' so am feeling a bit intimidated.

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Original poster
WedgiesMum · 13/07/2004 00:43

Where did that winky come from??

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Miaou · 13/07/2004 01:01

Wedgies Mum, when you speak to the governers (or whatever you decide to do) I would highlight the fact that the behaviour of your ds at home has changed, ie you mention that he is losing his self esteem, overreacting to small things at home, and blaming himself for accidents and getting upset about them.

I get the impression that this system is driven by the headmaster who simply does not see beyond the "misbehaviour must be punished and seen to be punished" scenario. i think it is vital that he/they understand that not only is it not working, but WHY it is not working (he's 5, ffs! that's why!), and that the negative impacts of the treatment go beyond the school environment.

Hope that makes sense, it's a bit jumbled! My dd2 would be named and shamed every Friday if she was at that school, and I don't think it would help her, either.

Tanzie · 13/07/2004 02:11

Dreadful system! Reminds me of when I was in Infant School and the evil headmistress used to read out the names of children she wanted to see in her office "at afternoon break" in the morning assembly. Everyone knew you had been naughty and if you didn't know what you had done, you had all day to worry yourself sick about this.

Headmistress hated me with a vengeance and always had me in her office under some pretext or another. If DDs' school started this I would be furious

Hulababy · 13/07/2004 12:24

WM - hope you don't mind but I have just copied your message and printed to ask for other teacher's opinions in the staff room at break. i am still so annoyed about it all for you.

Blu · 13/07/2004 13:04

I woke up thinking about this this morning - and realising that I wouldn't want my child to be implicated in being part of the punishment of another child. Even if my child was never given a card, I would demand that he be withdrawn from that part of Friday assembly rather than be forced to be a spectator, which creates the public humiliation part of the system. I would be very happy for him to congratulate others on success / improvement, obviously.

Makes me think of Stcks and public hangings - but maybe I'm feeling a LITTLE hystrionic this a.m.

Original poster
WedgiesMum · 13/07/2004 13:13

Small update. Spoke to the Head this morning about how uncomfortable I am about the whole thing. He said 'Well they don't actually have to stand up they just have to put their hand up and say what they have done' - as if that makes a difference. I have said I am totally unhappy with the whole process of public humilation and that I don't feel it is helpful to any child. He said that they had withdrawn it for a while as his deputy isn't happy about it but that parents had requested it's return!!! That he had seen a drop in behaviour standards as well when it had been removed and had reintroduced it. 'For every parent like you there are a hundred who want the system' apparently. He has 'noted' my concerns but is not going to change the system 'perhaps the new head in January may withdraw it'. Looks like I will have to go down the Governor route.

Hula - don't mind at all, the more opinions i have the better as far as I am concerned. I can then use Some of the response when I approach the Governors.

Thank you all again for your support and wise words, it's made me feel strong enough to tackle this.

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sis · 13/07/2004 13:18

WedgiesMum, I've only just spotted this and like everyone else, I think it is disgusting and I'm glad you are going to do something about it despite the intimidating headmaster. How is it that the school has not grasped the concept of giving attention for positive behaviour only?!! I can accept a 'time out' chair and if the behaviour is particularly unacceptable, being sent to see the head but the public humiliation is plain out of order!

tigermoth · 13/07/2004 16:09

wm, I too think the name saying in assembly is disgusting. Our school (very stict on behaviour) has a similar system - if you get a certain number of minus marks, you miss golden time on a Friday and may sit outside the head teacher's office, but NO WAY do the so called 'naughty' children get named in assembly. At assembly achievements get praised and that's all.

Also bonus points are heaped on children who manaage to improve their behaviour. My son at the end of year 4 got numerous bonus points just for not getting into trouble for a day, and those extra points meant he won the weekly bonus point prize twice in the summer term. He wasn't being better behaved than all his class, but for him it was a great personal achievement and it was recognised accordingly.

I feel great annoyance towards those parents at your sons school who apparently want the nameing and shaming system to continue - bet their children don't get their names read out that often! Unless the head was lying. I also am so cross that the head actually asks the children to say out loud what naughty thing they did.

Seriously, I'd be tempted to look around for other schools.

tigermoth · 13/07/2004 16:12

have you thought of complaining to the LEA or Ofsted? haven't read all this thread so perhaps you have.

I see a new head is starting in January so that's something, but I'd still log a complaint with the school at least and possibly externally.

Marina · 13/07/2004 16:46

WedgiesMum, just seen this. I'd be tempted to ask the Head, the teachers and the parents in favour of this disgraceful approach if they would like to be held publicly accountable for every mistake/cross word during their day. Let's hope the new head is of the same view as you and the deputy.
Well done to your ds1, Tigermoth. He's obviously been trying really hard

littlemissbossy · 13/07/2004 16:58

WedgiesMum, I posted yesterday but still feel annoyed about this... have just read your update about the Head retiring. Who is the new Head? Hopefully, someone with fresh ideas and a more positive approach to handling behaviour, good or bad. BTW we had a family party when my dss's Head left

firestorm · 13/07/2004 23:13

WM, thats terrible. ive never heard of that sort of thing happening in schools before, let alone to a 5 year old. have you considered changing schools?

Original poster
WedgiesMum · 14/07/2004 00:22

You are all so lovely, thank you so much for your support it has made me so much more confident about tackling this. Hadn't thought about contacting the LEA or OFSTED will definitely give that one some thought. Am in the process of writing a letter to the governors so will let you know how it goes.

WMxx

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Yorkiegirl · 14/07/2004 00:27

Message withdrawn

walnuttree · 14/07/2004 00:35

It is surprising how difficult it is to get the school to listen sometimes. My schooldays were run on public humiliation and fear and I am horrified that some teachers are still practising it in the 21st century. I have no problem with people losing playtime if they are not working or continually misbehaving, because teachers have to have some sanction. But it shouldn't be the whole school's business. All wrong. Well done for fighting back !!

coppertop · 14/07/2004 00:45

What a truly awful thing to do to children. I only wish we had the address of the Head/school so we could all send him a 'naughty card' of his own. I would complain to anyone who would listen.

Original poster
WedgiesMum · 14/07/2004 00:58

Am feeling very empowered at the moment YG yes! Have thought about withdrawing him from assembly, but the school were not too happy about it as it would just be for the one day (he actually enjoys assembly as he loves singing the songs and listening to the music etc etc). But may consider it if I get no joy.

LOL coppertop, I would like to do that actually (he and DS's teacher had another parent in tears today because of their treatment of her in public over one of her children who is too young to go to school yet - but that is another story).

I too have no problems about sanctions for unacceptable behaviour, and feel that DS needs to see some consequences for his behaviour, but undermining his confidence and self worth in this way is just too horrid for me to let continue.

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tigermoth · 14/07/2004 13:26

Glad the messages are helping you wm.

Just a thought, I know your ds likes singing in assembly, but considering the threat of the horrible naming calling system he has to suffer on Fridays, would it be reall be so bad if your son missed all assemblies for now? Would the school find that more acceptable? If you say it's on religious grounds, they can't stop you anyway, can they?

I'm thinking there are two more reasons for doing this:

1 - Other parents might cotton on that it's a quiet but public statement of your disapproval of this system. You never know, many might join you - you might start a revolution!!

2 - As the new head joins in January, your son may only need to miss assemblies till then.

If your ds is very disappointed about missing his singing, could you find a children's choir he could join?

Hulababy · 15/07/2004 12:52

WM - I bantered this all around on Thursday and could not find any teacher who thought it was acceptable - ranging from NQTs, class teachers, heads of departments and senior management. Even the Head in charge of discipline thought it was out of order. No way should public humilation be allowed

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