People who are in favour of grammar schools....

[BertrandRussell]

....what is your proposal for the majority who are not selected?

[EddieStobbart]

Sideeye - if Bertrand's school is giving the best education it can to the pupils, what can't the "high ability" pupils attend too?

[sharkinthedark]

My class at Grammar school had loads of prep girls - at least a third of the class were prep.

[MumTryingHerBest]

EddieStobbart Thu 08-Sep-16 22:27:16 I'd be interested to know if prep schools do better when a grammar school opens in the area.

My DCs primary school has pretty much become a feeder school for one local prep. Children leave the primary school at the end of years 2, 3, & 4 to join the prep. which also gives them the fall back option of staying on for CE if the outcome of the 11 plus doesn't quite go to plan.

A number of them were wearing their leavers hoodies at the induction day at my DCs school so pretty much advertising the fact they were prep. kids.

[BurnTheBlackSuit]

I'd like to know the stats, but where I live the grammar schools became private school. I would assume demand for private schools did increase or they would have gone out of business and not be over subscribed.

[EddieStobbart]

This argument will go round and round and round. Posters argue it helps social mobility but the analysis shows that it didn't and doesn't. People say it's great for their child or would be great because of course their child would get in but no one sings the praises of secondary moderns when the reality is that that's where most of the kids will go.

Posters say they were bright but bored from being lumped in with the numpties - a terrible thing to be inflicted on them - but want the majority of 11 year old children to be told they are inferior and separated from their "high ability" peers.

Welcome to utopia.

[EddieStobbart]

If the demand for private schools increased when the number of grammar schools reduced, doesn't that just show that a large proportion of people who were being educated by the grammars were from wealthy backgrounds, wealthy enough to afford to opt out of the state system? As the studies showed and as is the case today.

[Totallyspies17]

Actually in our case this year less than half of yr 6 from their prep school are going to grammar. Most are going to private secondaries which I find odd as one of the grammar schools in particular really is outstanding.
We couldn't afford private secondary school so that's not an option for us!

[OlennasWimple]

I'd like to see more schools like Tooting Graveney in South London that has a selective stream (70 per year) and non-selective stream (210) so that it is a comprehensive but with provision to stretch the brightest and also to allow the smart but not living in the catchment area kids an opportunity to attend

[MumTryingHerBest]

Totallyspies17 Thu 08-Sep-16 22:53:46 Actually in our case this year less than half of yr 6 from their prep school are going to grammar.

How many qualified for a place?

[MumTryingHerBest]

OlennasWimple All three of the non selectives in my area have a Grammar stream.

[Totallyspies17]

The ones that went to private secondary schools didn't even sit the 11+. All the ones that sat it passed last year but that's not the case every year. It's a small school though so it's not massive numbers

[Totallyspies17]

My reply was to MumTryingHerBest

[EddieStobbart]

Totally, maybe the parents didn't want the kids to feel a bit shit if they failed so they've just opted out of the whole thing.

[Totallyspies17]

That may be true. I think I might regret mine sitting it actually (huge sad mn confession )

[Totallyspies17]

I do want to add that their prep school is adorable and pressure is surprisingly low. It's not an academically pushy school and quite arty and sporty.

[MumTryingHerBest]

Totallyspies17 Thu 08-Sep-16 23:01:57 That may be true. I think I might regret mine sitting it actually

Why is that, if you don't mind me asking?

[Totallyspies17]

He is very very clever and I am sure he will do well wherever he goes. The non verbal tests are hard as his spatial awareness is fairly awful (!) and so he actually may not pass despite being of one the brightest in his class. I don't want him to fail and then feel like shit. He absolutely wants to do it - and he may well even pass as his verbal tests are usually practically full marks - but it's been so stressful and I am not sure it's worth the stress on such a young child. He is bright and confident and if his confidence is knocked by this then I worry for him.

[Totallyspies17]

Sorry Bert for hijacking your thread with my current meltdown!

[MumTryingHerBest]

Totallyspies17 What are the alternatives like?

I was fortunate as I took my DC to the non-ranked schools and asked them to talk to him about the Grammar Stream. As we were happy with the alternatives there was much less stress.

The only sticking point was that all the schools in the area are over subscribed as the selective schools get hammered by children from outside the area. This puts a lot of preasure on school places which are planned against local birth rates. Fortunately two of the selective schools added a bulge class so it all worked out in the end.

[Ilovemygsd]

I think grammar schools would reduce the quality of comps massively. The teachers first choice would be grammar schools, I'm just going to assume they'd get more funding. The level of brightness** in comps would be reduced, so any kids who just missed the 11+ would be left seriously under achieving. It'd be a 4 tier system, Sen schools. Comps = hate to say it but the riffraff, not bright, poor and those just under the limit. Grammar = get the best of everything for free. Private = any of the above but with some £s. If there was a grammar near me I'd put my ds in for the 11+, but because I'd assume the comp was a lower standard because the grammar is there not because I'd want to. I think they should make the comps better and forget about grammar, if ppl want that sort of schooling they should pay for it, no reduce school quality for every1 else

[Blu]

"As long as your child is getting the best grades and education he/she can, why would a school be better with higher ability children in? You said it's an excellent school. Why would it not have been excellent for your other child or indeed any other child whose parents wanted to opt their child out of the 11+? Why does having more higher ability children necessarily mean the school would be "better"? "

Better, for high achievers, perhaps, because when there is a critical mass of academic kids the school has more capacity to offer more MFL, Triple Science, EBacc, Further Maths, etc.

Once you have corralled a significant number of high achievers into a different school you are not simply left with the old school but smaller.

Hence why Stripey's assertion that those left out of the grammars will simply go to the schools they do now is not realistic.

[Totallyspies17]

3 very good state options but not where his friends are going!!
I've cried a lot this week and am so anxious about my little boy being under pressure It's generated 'mum guilt' too of course!

I'll stop posting on this thread as I'm detailing it. Think I just needed to say this somewhere anonymously as I present to others as so calm and together about it!

[Totallyspies17]

Again reply was to Mum

[Mummydummy]

One of the big drivers for closure of grammar schools in the 60s and 70s was middle class parents who hated the fact their children failed the 11 plus and were ashamed of them being sent to 'secondary moderns' which were effectively training people for industry and the trades.

By the age of 4 in this country socio-economic status is a greater predictor of academic performance than natural ability/intelligence. And today 1 in 4 primary school children are tutored - so middle class parents are already paying for greater access to the best schools for their children. I can only imagine that would expand further with the re-introduction of grammar schools, so the idea that they are meritocratic and that anyone who is bright enough will get in is unlikely to be true. It could well drive further inequality and class division.

Plus it was a well known fact that they raised the pass mark for girls because more of them passed the 11 plus than boys did and they wanted equal numbers of boys and girls to enter grammar education. So if it were truly done on merit girls would out perform boys even more so than they do now.

My children go to a high performing comprehensive school. They are heavily streamed so teaching is directed specifically to all levels of aptitude. I went to a highly selective girls school and never felt clever (which I was) - now its such a hothouse that I think the children miss out on a rounded school experience. I hate this culture of pressure parenting for results - I'd rather we produced rounded, creative, spirited citizens.

[BertrandRussell]

Totally- I absolutely understand. You have to talk to him about giving it a go- no big deal whether you pass or fail. But the problem with that is that you can't control what other people say to their children. It may just be my area, but do please be prepared for some crap from other kids or their parents. My ds lost friends when he failed. It was bizarre. But you're right- bright kids do well anywhere. It's the less bright ones that need the special treatment.