Disestablishmentarianist - re non church schools?

[Gumdrop]

OK I'll put my cards on the table first. I'm a very very humanist Quaker attender (sporadic), married to a secular Jew.

My DDs school isn't a church or other faith school, just a Village J&I school.

I have no objection to nativity stories BUT don't like having my 5 year old child coming back to me and saying things like "Jesus died to save us from our sins". I mean, what sins might those be?

Why does religion as opposed to a more philosophically based "morals" have a place on the curriculum?

I believe in humanist values. It makes me laugh when religious people think religious values (bigotry, hatred, intolerance, killing people, eternal damnation for anyone who doesn't worship their particular god, stoning to death, homophobia, burning at the stake, worldwide oppression of women, etc) are the only moral values around and are what we should be teaching our kids.
It also makes me laugh that it is fine to teach children that gods are real and should be worshipped, but not that they are imaginary friends (as John Peel once put it). Er, and what is the difference?

Oh bugger. Did it again.

Will try not to post again. You all know what I think anyway!
Totally agree with Gumdrop - it's wrong IMO to try to indoctrinate lovely little children with sinister claptrap about sin and damnation - esp if the school isn't even a religious school.
Morals are not the same as religion. Of course some religious people have good morals, & some are brave and selfless, but some are hypocrites and bigots, others are utterly evil, just like the rest of humanity.

Aloha, I hope you weren't taking offence at my post: I genuinely was amused (in an agreeing with you way) about your saying that you'd have failed if your son grew up and believed in god. It just seemed a dramatic statement (I know you were serious) and made me laugh - I don't want my son to believe in any god either.

Well, it was a bit melodramatic. But if he turns into a sandalled, bearded Godbotherer I will be quietly appalled. Or indeed, a Conservative MP. Eeek, what a thought!

Aloha What a way for him to rebel tho - sorry sounds flippant now but beliefs should be at home and edcuation at school I do n;t want anyone scaring my girl wth tales of hell or sinning

He probably will be tempted Aloha! My parents were lefty, women's libbers against all forms of discrimination and very honest about sex education and so on... as a teenager I was seriously v. p*ssed off that the only things I could possibly do to rebel would be to either join the Conservative party or get pregnant. I waited until I was 34 to have ds, Conservative party may take a looooooot longer...

Perhaps some teachers on this board can enlighten me as to what exactly has to be mentioned in assemblies.

I know my dd goes to a CofE church and I had no choice - catchment etc. But how far could I go to complain? I don't know whay it bothers me so much and I wonder if I should go into see the head and actually discuss matters. I just feel quite uncomftable as dd seems to take every word she hears about Jesus as the truth. I find it hard to explain and I know as a parent I must do more in teaching her the jewsh religion, but I have put if off for too long. Also I don't want to single her out at school and not let her go into assemblies.

Haven't had time to read all this ... but last year when dd1 started in reception, another new mum was an athiest and the dad a lapsed Hindu. They just said to the parents 'this is a Cathocic school. This is the way we pray ... if you don't like it - don't come here'. But amazingly, lots of non-Cathocics do. It's nice for us to have such a diversity.

Muddaofsubburbia; 'nuff respect; I think that is a very construcive point of view.
RobinW, PLEASE! Yes, many of us have enormous admiration for the values which have gone with religions for centuries and centuries, including pantheistic religions which pre-date christianity by millenia. I have many values and ethics which co-incide with christianity, and indeed buddhism, hindhuism, islam and certain shamanistic beliefs...all as an athiest. (I am also prone to bad outbreaks of materialism/consumerism too, but I find myself in eclectic company there!). You can't discount huge swathes of humanist/secular philosophy and ethics just because it isn't rooted in a doctrine of faith.

I like Mudda, am a "a real bible bashing evangelical born again scary Christian", but I also agree with her that worship shoudl be taken out of schools. I think there is a place for religious education, as I think knowing about religions and what people beleive is very important, and I would like to see RE done well and for schools to invite people of many faiths to take part as long as there is no brainwashing or indoctrination.

I found what aloha says about failing as a parent very thought provoking. I would like my children to grow up to develop an independent faith like mine. But more than that, I want them to ba intelligent and curious enough to make that decision for themselves. If they decide to be of a particular religion or even of no religion, I think I will have suceeded as a parent if I have enables them to think that through for themsleves and to have come to a decision they are comfortable with. We are a Christian family and we are teaching our children about Christianity because that is what we beleive, but I always answer questions about other faiths as clearly and carefully as I can (no that there have been many yet, dd1 is only 2 and a quarter). If they don't have my faith as adults then I hope it will be because I have enabled them to think for themselves.

Its my ds who is 2 and a quarter - dd1 is 4!!!

I'm another practising Christian who would prefer the UK to go the French route and offer only secular state education. From the sound of things in this thread, worrying and inappropriate things are being said to children in schools, with the best of intentions I'm sure.
Susanmt, you're absolutely right about failing or not as a parent. So long as ds and dd make up their own minds about faith or not, I'll be happy. I don't want them ever to feel indoctrinated or got at by either people with a faith or none.

Thanks for the responses -didn't know whether it was going to bomb as a topic. I didn't mean to post and run either, had IT issues.

I suppose I could extract dd from assemblies, but then I'd feel that she was being asked to act out of the ordinary in relation to what I believe. And I suppose since I had the same kind of schooling, prayers, hymns in assemblies and Harvest Festivals et al, and ended up with a very very vague "something of god/good in everyone" belief, by way of both rampant scientific atheism and happy clappy evangelistic dabbling, perhaps I should credit my dd with enough sense to find her own way and be happy with it?

So, with Tinker, I'll have to keep going with the "some people believe....." line.

But any more of the "sins" mularkey and I may have to be raising the issue with the school!

Sorry - meant to say "act out of the ordinary because of what I believe".

susanmt - as a woolly agnostic I gree with you totally too.

I'm intrigued that just about everyone here seems to agree, as I do, that religion should not be practiced in state schools (as opposed to being taught: this is what Christians/Muslims/Jews/Hindus believe). Meanwhile over on the sign of the cross thread most people seem to think that it's fine for C of E schools to exist and be state-supported, and that those of us who don't want our children involved in Christian worship at school should simply not 'choose' to send them there (even though in many areas people don't really have this choice).

Is it just a different group of mumsnetters posting on the different threads?

Rolymoly, I was wondering that, too.

Message withdrawn

Okay, I'll try to give another view -- I'd just been lurking here, thinking, 'Oh no, don't want to get controversial, everyone'll hate me...'

My children are at a Catholic school, where (at least in principle) all the children come from practising Catholic families. In theory there are places available for non-Catholics or even non-Christians, but in reality the school is so over-subscribed that this doesn't happen. There is very good racial and linguistic diversity about half to two-thirds of the children are from ethnic minority backgrounds and about a third of the children are on free school meals. About 10% of the kids have some form of social services involvement, and some come from very difficult backgrounds -- eg. parental drug-taking/selling, violence, prison etc. Another 10% or so come from very comfortable professional middle-class backgrounds.

The school is a successful, very caring and safe community in a difficult area, which does its best for all the children. The league table results are reasonable, although not stellar, and the children are happy and achieve as well as they can.

Part of the reason for the school's successful atmosphere is that many of the families are regular attenders at Mass in one of two local churches, and are otherwise involved in parish activities. This shared faith and values is a cohesive factor in a very diverse community, and has a very positive effect on the children's sense of stability and security. In addition too this, the faith and values taught in the school back up those taught in the children's homes.

I know that many non-religious schools are doing a successful job in similar communities without the religious factor. But for me the fact that the children see their classmates and their teachers sharing in the practice of the faith they are taught at home is a very important factor in supporting the way we are bringing them up, and I know that many other parents who have chosen to send their children to our school or similar schools feel the same.

However, this kind of shared religious experience is appropriate only where you can assume that all the families share the same religious outlook, which is clearly no longer the case in rural areas where there may be no effective choice of school.

Message withdrawn

I think the problem is that historically the CofE was one of the main players in primary education, they took the lead rather than whatever Victorian government. We also have a situation where the CofE is linked to government etc and whilst we now have representatives of otherfaith communities in the house of lords, the CofE still enjoys a favoured status.

So, I would prefer for the link between the CofE and the state to be broken in all areas, not just in schools. At the moment there is no such thing as a "faith-free" school and in some supposedly non-denominational primary schools the evangelical message can be quite overpowering and IMO inaapropriate. As an RC I feel that if my DD must be taught about Christianity at school it should be in tune with what she's taught at home, as some people have found out already primary age kids generally aren't ready to take on religious debate. My DD therefore attends a (private) RC school. However, if I chose to send my DD to a CofE/Jewish/whatever faith school, I think I would have to allow my DD to be instructed in the ways of that faith. I do have lots of sympathy for people in rural areas where the only school is a church school, but I think it's unlikely the situation will change (cost to government, popular with a majority of parents).

rolymoly, I think that this thread comes out of the other one. I posted there and then found this thread.

I have decided to do something about my unease. I finally spoke to Dh last night and explained that I was uncomfortable. I am going to try to get an appointment with the head to chat about how the Christian message is put across in assembley. I don't like dd telling me I am wrong and Mr Watts is right. However I think that maybe as his authority is new to her and she just doesn't understand.

My I had to think for the very first time about this when I got involved in a thread about this very same thing some time ago, so My opinion:
In an ideal world: state education should be secular. (I cannot believe some of the comments that children have come out with as reported on this thread!).
faith schools should be funded by the churches and then only attended by faith believing peolple.
BUT, and here is where I have a dilema with myself and can't resolve the way I feel: It may mean that faith schools were only open to people who can afford to contribute to the running of the school...
I aim to bring my children up to be of an independant mind, to question and form their own opinions. They are curently exposed to 2 main stram faiths in the UK, have exposure to hinduism and have observed and taken part in Hindu festivels. If they choose a "faith or to be agnostic then I have not failed as a parent either way as long as their decision has come about through their own* choice.