Westminster Challenge vs Common Entrance.

[SarahSavesTheDay]

My son is going to Westminster next year (conditional upon the CE, naturally). His head has said 'no' to the Challenge, which seems fine to me because I sincerely doubt he's anything above an average WM student.

Does anyone know: what percent of their 13+ intake takes the challenge? What percentile should a boy be to consider it? Is this an exercise reserved for the supremely intelligent?

Thanks.

That said it gave him a lovely boost before starting at W, especially as he didn't know anyone going.

That percentage looks about the same as Eton, in DS's year 135 boys took CE and 117 took the KS and were exempted CE.

If your school has got 6 boys accepted they must be pretty good, so if they have advised against the Challenge I would assume that they know what they are talking about.

It may well be that their decision is not based purely on intelligence either, but on attitude as well. Some boys are champing at the bit for more (and more challenging) work; most of them are content to just do what is put in front of them.

Unless your DS is one of the former then your school's advice seems sound. We know one boy who took the KS (on advice), totally screwed it up, and then had to do CE as well!

”Does anyone know: what percent of their 13+ intake takes the challenge? What percentile should a boy be to consider it? Is this an exercise reserved for the supremely intelligent?”

OP, I gather the level of The Challenge is similar to Eton’s King’s Scholarship. I’ve heard from an Oxford admissions tutor The Challenge used to be very, very tough but now it’s not as tough as the KS.

I don’t know what percentage takes The Challenge nor what percentile exactly should a boy be to consider it and given the level is similar to the KS, I’m quite confident in saying that a boy should be at a level good enough to be admitted to be a member of British Mensa i.e. with IQ in the top 2% of the population - an IQ score of 132 (Culture Fair Test) or 148 (Cattell B III). So yes, a boy's got to be very intelligent.

Peternas, I'm not sure it is important how tough the exam is, but how competitive it is.

If I were involved in Westminster admissions (which I am not!) I would be concerned:

1. to encourage as many as possible to take an exam which takes a more interesting approach than CE, and perhaps allows you to better differentiate between the candidates with real potential.
2. to ensure that the exam was not so hard that the school started seeing over-tutored and anxious entrants who had done little in the previous two years other than prepare for tests.
3. be reasonably accessible to pupils who were not at WUS, The Hall, DCPS etc.

(Mom17 - Was rather hoping you'd come back with a vigorous argument against the teaching of dead languages. I like having my most treasured shibboleths thoroughly debunked.)

needmore I agree that it is to W's credit that DS was not only able to easily access the Challenge curriculum from an unknown, unpractised prep, but to actually enjoy the process and ultimately be successful.

Needmore, I don’t quite understand what you’re trying to project. Firstly, I was merely answering OP’s queries re The Challenge and how tough it is. Secondly, the whole idea of The Challenge is it’s tough. Very tough. Westminster School makes no bones about its toughness, hence aptly naming it, ‘The Challenge’.

And what is there to stop any intelligent individual from accessing The Challenge? Insofar as I can see - nothing, as the son of the poster above attests to. Also, I do not have much hope for any ‘over-tutored’ entrant who had done little work succeeding in The Challenge.

I've just asked DS about this and he says it's worth giving it a go for the more interesting curriculum provided your teachers aren't going to work you into the ground.

Some of his peers recall a lot of pressure from school which is probably not a Good Thing at 12!

Peter...not what I meant.

The central London education landscape seems to have changed a a lot, even in the few years since we went through it. Or perhaps DC were lucky to have gone to a relatively unpushy prep.

Lots of prepping for pre-tests, then lots of prepping for the Challenge, often both inside and outside school. In contrast we more of less drifted through the process. DCs Prep were also clear that they only supported individual candidates for the various scholarship exams if they had a realistic chance of winning one, which is in quite strong contrast to other schools where some parents are keen to see their children in a "scholarship class".

I assume schools see this, hence recent comments on another thread about Eton looking beyond the traditional Preps for good candidates. Similarly I understand Colet Court has revised its approach to help relieve some of pressure on their pupils. (A lasting memory is seeing a Colet 9 year old with his ever present mother wheeling an air hostess suitcase containing his homework, as he dashed from his grade 8 music to his national level sports training.)

What I am trying to say is that the "Challenge" should form an interesting challenge for the right candidate. Interesting though, rather than super-hard, and the extra work should be both maneagable and fun. Some very very bright boys enter through the Challenge, but others, as Shegot suggests, appear to have been over pushed.

Education is a long haul. Our observation is that students at good Universities are expected to work extremely hard. Some children might have had 3+, 7+, 11+ pre-test, 13+ CE, 16+ GCSE, 17+ AS and 18+ A2. DS did Common Entrance which was pretty dull and not over challenging, or rather for him French and English were challenging enough. I don't think it made any difference thereafter other than he probably would have taken his French GCSE a year early. In sixth form he was in the same maths set as a couple of scholars, whilst others had maintained their early promise and were in higher sets. The big thing, and the real joy of Westminster, is that he has enjoyed his education, and has gone to University well prepared but not over stretched. Inevitably he has seen a couple of peers, perhaps facing higher expectation, buckle under the pressure on the way. And at University he can see fellow students, especially from the parts of Asia where heavy tutoring is the norm, come unstuck as they either struggle with the academic challenge, or simply struggle to find self-motivation once away from parents.

In short OP. If he has a realistic chance of gaining a scholarship, go for it. He will probably enjoy the preparation. If not, don't bother. (Unless you think there is a good chance of a Coronation wihtin the next seven years and your DS likes ceremonial stuff.)

Sarah IMO the soundness of your DS's head's advice and what it says about your DS's relative placing within his future Westminster cohort needs to be taken in the context of the frequency of Challenge candidates and successes in previous years from that prep school.
Your DS's future academic progress at Westminster and beyond will be more influenced by his continuing enthusiasm and sustained efforts for his subjects than a snapshot view of his abilities and maturity now. He is clearly bright to have an offer at Westminster. If you feel he is bored by his present work than either let him use the time to extend his reading etc at home or push the headmaster to give it a go.

Two of last years Queens scholars were helped by the same tutor (family friend and no they didn't know about each other) in addition to attending very good preps. It is one of the few scholarships which still gives a substantial discount on fees without means testing. The boys were both extremely bright but the parents knew it was very competitive and it was worth the investment for them. (£wise).

Something to bear in mind OP because it is very competitive. Good luck whatever you do, but IMO your DS has done so well to even get a place at Westminster and that would be enough for me.

Thanks everyone for your extremely sound advice. I am going to speak with the head in greater detail about this, because it seems like a larger conversation than just 'no'.

I'm always amazed at the calibre of advice to be found on these boards. Really.

Feel free to pm me OP. My experience is 4 years ago but am happy to pass on ( though we're on holiday til Sunday and wi fi is sporadic so bare with ).

About half the intake come through the challenge, similar to Eton. I think both schools are rather struggling with the sheer numbers who is why Eton has changed things this year such that only candidates who are willing to go into College (ie to actually hold a scholarship) will take the papers at the school and do the intelligence test. (The rest will sit in their prep schools) They have been muttering for years that too many boys with no hope of winning are sitting and I suspect that they may in the end say you can only sit if you want to be a scholar. The marking must be a nightmare. Whether westminster will take similar steps too will be interesting.
It is all complicated by what one of the earlier posters said about schools liking to have boys sit regularly - a local prep to us puts their most academic boys in the scholarship set and this generally includes their westminster boys but they haven't won one for years.
My son's prep (WUS) doesn't help by splitting the year 50:50 into scholarship and CE so that immediately provides about 25 candidates.
The comment earlier about 8 scholars and 5 honoraries isn't right. There is a set number of queen's scholars and, I understand , if those who have declined to accept a place in College come in the top 5, they get an honorary.

Then you get Into the debate about whether it is more interesting than CE. I think this is probably true but I do think they ask rather a lot - some of the humanities essay titles are verging on ludicrous for boys of that age

Oh and I wouldn't get too excited about Greek. WUS at least are pretty weak at it as they only start in September year 8 - I suspect it is probably an optional paper. WuS boys don't sit the Eton one as simply haven't done enough.

@cakeisalwaystheanswer

Two of last years Queens scholars were helped by the same tutor (family friend and no they didn't know about each other) in addition to attending very good preps. It is one of the few scholarships which still gives a substantial discount on fees without means testing. The boys were both extremely bright but the parents knew it was very competitive and it was worth the investment for them. (£wise).

Something to bear in mind OP because it is very competitive. Good luck whatever you do, but IMO your DS has done so well to even get a place at Westminster and that would be enough for me.

Could you please provide me contact of tutor for challenge exam . My boy goes to WUS and want to prepare for it.

This thread is from years ago!

@cakeisalwaystheanswer

Two of last years Queens scholars were helped by the same tutor (family friend and no they didn't know about each other) in addition to attending very good preps. It is one of the few scholarships which still gives a substantial discount on fees without means testing. The boys were both extremely bright but the parents knew it was very competitive and it was worth the investment for them. (£wise).

Something to bear in mind OP because it is very competitive. Good luck whatever you do, but IMO your DS has done so well to even get a place at Westminster and that would be enough for me.

Hi Could you please provide me name of good tutor whjch can Help prepare for queen scholarship? Thanks