Selective junior schools

[Pennies]

Just been to see a school which has a selection process for all intake - even from Reception. I personally think this is ludicrous for such a young age. They spend the afternoon playing games there. What are they expecting to see that makes them think they'll deign to accept a child?

Harry should obviously not have got into Eton but perhaps it's fun to make some exceptions. It probably made classes hard if one child is much less bright than others.

Are children of richer parents cleverer? In other words take an IQ test of 5 year olds at an average state school may be by a council estate and then do the same test on a new intake at a prep school which does not assess but just has them put down at birth. Would the results be the same?

Xenia,

My son goes to school with loads of children from a council estate. The level of intelligence varies wildly. I am sure that the top five children of the class would hold their own in any prep school.

One of Andrew's little friend who is in a single parent family has a mother who is a lab technician at a medical school and her father (who doesnt acknowledge his daughter) is a top university professor of the medical school. the child is unbelievably bright.

Intelligent children turn up in the strangest places

I wasn't assuming anything - just asking. IQ tends to move to average (parents 130/130 tend to have children a bit less clever). Probably those who earn more and are successful and paying school fees tend to be cleverer so the putting down at birth "comprehensive" prep schools perhaps get a higher IQ average than children from any average state school.

Xenia - why does such a point matter?

I'm starting to wonder whether ours is gradually changing its policy. It is opening a nursery section in January, taking children from age 2. However its hours are 8-3 termtime only, thereby being fairly useless for many of the families with 2 parents working "normal" jobs, as they would need nanny or cm as well. I'm probably being unduely cynical in viewing this as a further pre-weeding of their "non-academically selective" entry!

btw - totally agree that raw intelligence can appear anywhere. I have a friend who works in an excellent school in a very deprived area. She finds it difficult as she has g&t children who have no real horizons beyond what is available locally. She starts teaching them about the idea of university and professional qualifications from the age at 6 or 7 in the hope that it will raise their aspirations.

That's why I liked the idea of grammar schools, plucking those clearly very bright very poor children out of their environment to a place where everyone's standards were high.

Some schools opened younger and younger parts of the schools because other schools have and were creaming off the best children. Our philosophy was it may be easier to get the chidlren into schools like Habs and NLCS at 4 or 7 than a 11 so the younger you can get them in the better. You also then get quite a few chances to get in rather than just one all or nothing at 11. Weeding out.. I don't think schools like to do that. I think they prefer to pick children who can stay right through to A level. Administratively simpler and cheaper. If they do find they can't properly choose at 3 or 4 but have to have a junior part to keep up with similar schools that open one at age then I suppose they will need to do some weeding out.

Sorry - by weeding I was refering to the 4+ "selection" process. At our school they only allow 50 registrants per year who all have a group session - I can't quite remember what they call it. It is only after this session that you get a firm offer, but it is less about looking for the top 5% and more about weeding out anyone who is likely to be highly disruptive or have special needs that can't be catered for (or sits in a corner all morning). Once you're accepted the school will pretty much take care of you even if you are a duffer, though "taken care off" may include recommending a transfer to a less academic prep!

DD had a selection or assessment session in the November before she started the following September. After this we found out if she had a place. The session was very informal. More of a play session and a chat for DD with the PP1 teacher. It was just to see if the girls were ready to start school - whch I guess is more for the younger girls as we are in a two intake system in the state sector. As far as I am aware no one failed the assessment. I think it is more to help the teachers know who they are getting and how they'd fit in. DD saw it as a fun time. She drew a picture, wrote her name on it, talked about recent holiday and about our friend's new baby (infact I think DD told the teacher an awfu lot about our life at the time, lol!) She played somee game with boxes, which fit inside one another with a suprise at the end, etc. We had a potentially worse deal - an hour with the head

Definitely no IQ or "brightness" test done at DD's assessment. There are a wide range of abilities from what I have seen so far.

We get the hour with the head first[schock]. The school will not send out any application forms, so the only way that you can even register is to spend an hour with the head. We then have the selection morning (this term for Sept 2007 entry) and then in May we have a halfday where the children meet the teacher and the rest of the class and the parents get a lecture on what is expected for us and then drinks where we can sympathise with each other (and arrange playdates over the summer!).

Hmmm, well perhaps [schock] is appropriate...?

Forgot that there was also a group meet in June for parents and children. Routines for parents were given out, and info on what would be taught, what the girls would do, etc. Girls played. We actually never went to it as we were on holiday. Didn't hamper DD though.

If I was choosing an infant school I would pick one where reading is taught properly by synthetic phonics. (Ie. no mixed methods)

The intake of my son's infant school has been described by Ofsted as well below average. The school is in deprived area and there are a lot of children in the class with special needs. (Including my son who only has 40% hearing at the moment due to glue ear)

However more than a third of the children got a level 3 for their keystage 1 SATs last year. Also about half of the reception class can now blend and segment words in their reading. They have been taught to read by pure synthetic phonics. Most the children who havent learnt to blend have reasons that they are finding reading difficult. For example several of the children have very limited English.

Andrew is doing amazingly well at reading inspite of having a hearing impairment. He is moviated by wanting to read "Power Ranger" comics. His comprehension is behind his decoding ablities but that is coming on nicely too. His maths skills are developing quickly as well.

I find the concept of IQ extremely questionable. A lot of special needs that four years old have are temporary. (My son had physio, because the tendons in his heels were too tight and made it hard to walk. He also has glue ear which he will grow out of.) Even if you look at children without special needs, Xenia's children who got rejected by their first choice of school have gone on to do well.

Even with Adults there are so many types of intelligence. Things like social skills are not easily tested by an IQ test.

I am not against selection, but I think thirteen is a better age for selective education. If there was a choice of schools for thirteen year olds then I am sure that behaviour would be better. I even suspect that many thirteen year olds would select the best school for them if there was a choice of vocational, grammar schools and basic skills schools like Germany.

frances you may be right. The very academic London / SE private day schools with juniors bits just seemed to have foudn they can apply techniques to work out who is in the top 5% by IQ at 5 or 7 as well as 11. It saves parental anxiety at 11 if the children get in at 5 or 7 so I was glad. It also means your junior years are with children of a similar ilk so the whole class can be working on tough stuff and all understanding it, not that there aren't a range of IQs in schools like NLCS and Habs etc of course. My daughters were average and they would have friends getting aa A* at GCSE then go to Oxbridge. But I'm sure it does you good and makes you work harder if you are with other people who are better than you are in terms of work.

In terms of life now I'm in my 40s of course I can see how all kinds of things matter in life and school is just one part. Some clever children are completely idle but very happy. Others work hard and are happy. Some are lucky. Some are charming and sociable. Others are clever but no one would employ them in a month of Sundays as they blush and look at the floor when they speak to anyone. A whole range of factors help children in life. Even basic things - like weight - employers give more jobs to the slim, fit and even those who are tall. Very unfair world isn't it... You can see why the Chinese pay to have metal plates put in their legs to make them taller.