A teacher is physically or verbally assaulted every seven minutes

[Hulababy]

Story

Sadly I suspect this is very true, and many are completely unreported. I know whe I had a problem like this it never went further than the deputy head

But, what to do? How can this be improved and made better?

lol popsy, and I think you've got the right approach.

note to self: one post was forgiveable, two is foolish ...

Hula, we do have some systems that work, but they are beginning to break down again. We have a patrol system in which there is always a senior member of staff on patrol. They have a walkie talkie with them, so you can get a colleague to ring the office, or send a good kid to the office and someone will be with you in seconds. In the last week of term two cover teachers failed to show up and at the same time a group of kids decided to refuse to go into lessons - for a laugh - and of course it ended in a fight. While I was still breaking up the fight two senior teachers had arrived.

So that is a good system, but it has been going about 4 years now, and it needs to be overhauled. The problem is that colleagues are beginning to feel undermined. They can ask a student to remove their coat and work. The student refuses. An incident flairs up, patrol is called for (or even just walks past) and the student removes their coat, earrings & switches phone off and gets on with work - leaving their teacher feeling thoroughly useless and deproffesionalised. The other problem is overdependence. I had a senior teacher moan to me that she kept getting called for things so trivial and minor that the teacher should have attempted to deal with it themselves, but didn't. I think the system has just run its course, basically, and needs a change. It was good, and just needs refreshing.

Hulababy, 7 warnings? Insane! Assume that each warning takes a minute to deal with (and it probably takes longet than that), a single child could then waste 10% of one of my lessons!

Children should come to school knowing what a reasonable standard of behvious is, and how to comply with that standard. No one expects children to behave like angels, but some kids in our school have no idea how to behave. Their parents have simply never diciplined them. These parenst will deny that their kids are a problem, and repeatedly fail to support the school. This continues right up to the point where the kid is out of control at home as well as in school and ofen the police are involved. Then the parents want the school to work miracles on the kids. Bottom line is, (SEN different case) if a child cannot behave in school they should become the sole responsibility of the parent.

Crikey, you'd think that poor teacher would have had enough by now.

Sorry, couldn't resist - reminded me of the old joke: "In China a woman gives birth every minute..." "Shouldn't someone find her and stop her?"

Jokes aside, agree that this is a horrendous statistic.

hmb where i do agree with you compleatly i have to say that i am going to be stuck in a predicament when mine starts school because people are saying disapline your child but like when i was a child disapline ment grounded and you favourite things taken away now the law says if you ground your child you are breaking the law because its false imprisonment if you take there favourite things its against the law because its stealing the law want us to disapline our children but they seem to think saying dont do that or be a good boy/girl that there automaticaly going to behave so where as i belive alot of the time its down to the parents i think they should bring back its yourchild you disapline them how you see fit within reason like not hitting the liveing daylight out of them but grounding takeing away pocket money takeing away fav toys and such

My dd goes to secondary school in sept and I am worried stiff... she is v well behaved (but aren't they all when they're little?)and sensible but she's just one out of 200- what will the others be like?

Just what rights do teachers have these days in schools? Don't you just feel like slapping some of the little sods and giving them a piece of your "real" mind instead of being bound by political correctness and red tape? Is there such a thing as contributory negligence ie. if Johnny throws chair at teacher and teacher kicks him up the backside, was he not just asking for it? IYSWIM

Have to add my ds gets "picked on" by a teachers son (both 7) and has been now for 2 years. When ds tells "Miss" at playtime ds gets told to keep away from him.

On the last day of term a boy in my dd's class found out that another boy from 2 years below wrote a love letter to a girl in year 4 whom dd's classmate fancied. He got the year 4 boy in the loos and wiped the love note round the urinal trough thingy and smeared it over year 4 boy's head and face and apparently tried to get the boy to eat it. He's 11 ffs!!!!

What can be done?

message withdrawn

well, robinw, i'm afraid i have to agree with you there! in fact, i had actually typed somthing about "teacher behaviour" yesterday, and then deleted it as I wasn't convinced I had expressed myself clearly enough on such a sensitive issue.

As I mentioned I am addressing the issue at the moment in my department of kids just being chucked out. The solution I am trying to put across is deeply unpopular, but is simple: make the children WANT to stat in your classroom. From the moment they walk in the door make sure they are fully engaged and have something to do which is a challenge but thyshould be able to achieve at. Part of the arguments I hear against this is "but they shouldn't expect learning to be fun, they should be able to get on with it." Absolutely - I am not saying make it fun, I am saying make it engaging. Most children want to learn and we are not giving them the opportunity throughout the lesson.

Example: a student turns up 3 minutes late. The teacher stands at the door shouting at them for being late, they come in in a bad mood and so end up being sent out 5 minutes later. OR the latecomer is greeted at the door with "I'm glad you're here, there's some work on the board and I reckon you could finish it before the rest! When you're settled down I'll come and talk to you about why you're late." Hense lateness dealt with, but the student knows exactly why they're in the room. I see the first example again and again in my department, and surprise surprise the student comes later and later in the future!

I'm not convinced about zero tolerance. Someone mentioned it earlier and started saying except for ... and that is the problem. Take this recent example. A student teacher recently arrived in my department very keen on zero tolerance, the students will do as expected type response. In one lesson a girl who has attendance problems got out of her seat during independent working time at the beginning of the lesson and walked to the bin. Teacher said "sit down immediately." The situation immediately escalated, the student refused to work and spread bad feelings throughout the group until she eventually had to be removed from the room by a senior teacher. The real story was, this girl had seen the work on the board, thought "I reckon I can do that, that looks interesting" in her excitement she had rushed to the bin with her pencil and sharpener so that she would be able to do the work. I said to the student what about saying "ah, I can see that you are keen to do the work, but you know you should really ask before getting out of your seat, carry on now, just remember to ask in the future." I can guarantee that any genuine student would now apologise! When I put this to the student teacher she said "no, you have to make the point consistently."

Sorry this is so long, but it is a very complex issue, because teaching is a very complex role. There is a balance between zero tolerance and pc tolerance. My department are just too knackered by dealing with large classes of difficult students to use the 4 hours a week of planning and marking time they are given to prepare the type of lesson these classes need. Plus, as I mentioned earlier, most of these 4 hours will be taken up with following up behavioural difficulties and supporting colleagues with theirs.

I think the answer is smaller classes and lighter timetables for teachers. We are all trying desperately hard but we know that we are not achieving. This isn't meant to be excuses or a moan. Teachers are often wrong. But we know what the right thing is and we really want to do it. We just need the time.

There seem to be several factors at work here. Children these days are subject to so many more influences than 30-40 years ago. Television plays a big part, but also the games available for various electronic consoles must share some of the blame. Children are more aware of their "rights" - perhaps teaching them (either at home or in school) that with rights come responsibilities should be high on the agenda. And also there are a lot of parents who feel that if there is a problem in school, then it is the school's problem, which is a total disassociation with the child's behaviour.

So maybe there needs to be some sort of vicarious punishment of the parents. If you allow your child to truant, you can be fined or even sent to prison. If you allow your child to misbehave in school (by allow I mean deny there is a problem/refuse to work with the school to resolve the issue), perhaps such parents need to be hit in the pocket.

I can see some parents' point of view. If your child only behaves like this in school, it can be difficult to deal with the issue at home. When DS1 started infant school, he had behavioural problems. He was very well behaved at home, but he was bored in school. His teacher approached me and asked me to deal with the matter, but how could I deal with a behavioural issue that wasn't happening when he was with me? In the end, we did work together to resolve the issue, and he's fine.

DS1 has only one more year at primary school before he hits the influences of secondary education. I am worried as he is quite easily led (wants people to like him too much), but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

Robinw - my comment re: small kids behaviour was meant to be a little tongue in cheek.

The teachers child is passed off as "clumsy and over vigorous" too. When another little boy in year 1 whacked my son on his forearm with a wooden rounders bat my son just turned round and booted him. Now I have mixed feelings about this, glad that my son decided to show he wasn't going to take such treatment but on the other hand v sad that this really goes against his character (he is petrified of getting into trouble at school and being a "naughty boy". Sorry about your dd being bullied

sorry no smiley after "naughty boy" )

I agree that lessons have to be engaging. A teacher would be very silly not to. But there are some kids who do not want to be in school and do any work at all. I am thinging of kids in the age 14-16 bracket who are disruptive in all of their lessons, even those that are often seen as 'fun' lessons like art, music and drama (not disparaging these lessons at all I understand their worth 100%, this is the kid's view we are talking about).

I have posted before that these are kids that you could drop into Disneyland and they would tell you they were 'bored' and that it was 'crap'. In part it is because of the hormonal changes that they are going through. Many of these kids have completly unrealistic expectations of what life is going to be like for them, fed in part by TV. Many of them honestly think that they don't need to work in school because they are going to go on PopIdol and be discovered. A very small number will, but most will not! Many of these kids don't even sing! I'm all in favour of supporting ambition, but it needs to be based in some realistic expectation.

School have to have the powers to deal with children who are disrupting the education of the other children in the class. Smaller class sizes are key, but not the only answer. Even if I had class sizes of 20 I still couldn't give some of these kids the attention that they need to stop them being a pain.

When I was taking about zero tolerence, I was meaning that violence should not be tolerated in classes. No teacher, or child should be in fear of violence in the classroom.

What would I do? I would let those kids who don't want to be in school leave at the age of 14. They would then have the absolute right to return to full time education at a time of their chosing. I teach in adult ed as well as a stae comprehensive. Many of my adult learners admit to haveing been very disruptive when they were in school. Now, havind discovered that they did need qualifications to get an interesting job, they have a valid reason to learn. And they are amazing!

Schools are there to educate. If kids will not let themselves be educated, they should not be there. If society wants schools to do more than educate they should give them the resources to do so. I don't think that the current system has the resources it needs to teach, let alone act as surrogate parents to those children who come to school ill dressed and fed, without the social skills that they need to cope with education and the outside world. Parents and schools need to work in partnership to work for the best interests of the child and government should give the schools the resources they need.

Agree about those students who will not work however engaging the lesson is. They should be removed. We have programmes and departments here who work with those students who cannot cope with mainstream education. When you start to look at the backgrounds most of these young people come from it makes you want to cry! My comments were directed towards the majority. If you have the majority onside and working well then dealing with the minority is much more efficient, and you can quickly get back to a positive focus on those who do work well.

Incidentally, the majority of students in schools are lovely, polite and highly motivated. This is the reason why school crowd scenes in dramas often look so unconvincing - a majority will behave appropriately. When I was a beginning teacher and really struggling I kept two lists above my desk at home. One was entitlesd "nightmare students" the other was "students who make it all worth while" The second list was not even for the neutral ones - it was for those who made a real positive impact on lessons. It was always longer than the negative list. No one ever dropped off that list, and the most satisfying thing in the world was moving a student from the negative list to the positive list! So stats like this one should not be over stated. Yes, there are real and horrific problems in schools, but the majority of students do want to learn and do well.

I like your idea about leaving at 14, but what would those young people do? Would they not become some other overstretched public sector body's problem?

Agree with you 100% that the vast majority of kids are great. I Love my job and consider it a priveledgeto get to work with them.

TBH I think that letting loose the disafected 14-16 years old might help to make the point to the government that these kids are a problem. At the moment the school system is practicing crowd control on these kids and we are 'hiding' the problem. Of itself that wouldn't worry me but I know, as do you, that these kids are wrecking the education of others, often of children who are least able to cope and need qualifications the most.

And I mean we should let kids go who don't want to learn, not those who have problems learning.

Bottom line is, I can teach but only they can learn. If they will not learn, why are they there? Let them go and get a job, work with dad/mum, whatever, and when they want to learn, come back. They are not learning anyway, so what is the difference to them? But their going would make a massive improvemnt for those kids who do want to learn.

Maybe there should be a different sort of education for those who should leave school at 14. What about bringing back apprenticeships or some sort of vocational training for children of that age? If academic education isn't for them, perhaps something a bit more "hands on" would suit them better.

"really interested, hulababy, or just another teacher's moan session? "

Thanks for the support robinw!

Yes I am interested. I have been both physically and verbally abused in my current teaching post. Discipline is so appalling here that I feel I have no choice than to leave I am so glad that you understand!!!I am not prepared foir yet anoither education thread to go sour. I did find the statistic intersting, and terrifying.

Agree! And not the half aresed vocational GCSEs that are neither on ething not another. A real honest to goodness aprenticeship. Goodness knows we need more trained plumbers, and they would end up earning a pot loat of money, far more than a teacher! We should ditch the stupid, offensive idea that only the accademic has value.

Freckle - at the school I teach at there is an alternative for cchildren aged 14-16. Some of our disafected pupils are placed on reengagement programmes. This means that those pupils get to spend 3 days a week on placements, such as day nursery, garage, college, etc. The other two days are then spent either in college or more likely with in our Key Stage 4 learning support unit, when pupils concentrate in core subject skills - not GCSEs, I think they do an ASDAN award - looking at maths, english, etc. They are then withdrawn for the rest of the school curriculum. It is working really well with these pupils. Certainly the girl I help to set up her placement at DD's nursery has made a huge turnaround - she is like a different person I think that maybe this type of thing needs extending. Going back to the 'old' systems?

robiunw - I agree BTW that schools need to do more. Management MUST be made to deal with all issues of bullying (whether from pupils or teachers) and more needs to be done. We need to have policies of zero tolerance now.

I have to say that yes more staff is required. I think that to have support staff in the rooms to work WITH (not instead as some Government ideas have been) teachers would be a very good idea. But also that, in secondary at least, those staff need to be skilled in the subject area. I teach ICT andreally do need my support staf to have some level of ICT skills. I am lucky at the moment I have some bvery good LSAs in my lower ability classes, and this really does help. I would most definitely welcome additional, supportive help within my classroom. Sadly I doubt this will happen. Schools don't have the money around here to keep on their teaching staff to cover all their lessons, let alone additional staff

There seems to be a mentality within govts. that you have to change things to progress. So they bring in ever more demanding systems and tend to lose sight of the end goal. Take the current govt's aim to get more people into universities. Why? What makes them think that 50% of school pupils want to extend their academic education? Why do they think that 50% of school pupils are suitable for a university education? There are loads of pupils out there who want to go out and earn money (rather than acquire oodles of debt), not study for an extra 3/4 years. Give them some sort of vocational training, preferably the sort where they can earn as they learn, and more will want to continue their education - just not in an academic setting.

And this drive to promote a university education demeans and devalues other sorts of training.

I agree Freckle. This Government policy of getting so many more students into uni annoys me. Why is it necessary? We just end up with loads of courses, unis acceoting lower grades, and then unis nopt being able to afford to run the courses. Hence the need for such high top up fees for those students who do want to go. But I guess that is another debate

I think within education we need to be looking at other routes than just the academic. I think the reengagement programmes are a start but more needs to be done.

Really like your posts on this thread, fisil. I do agree with you and Robin- I used to work in a learning support role in some difficult secondaries and the negative attitude of some teachers was just as apparent and shocking as the truly poor behaviour of some pupils. It was intertwined, I think; rock bottom teacher morale and self esteem mirrored the anger and despair of the kids and led to vicious cycles of bad behaviour and failure for all concerned. The more disaffected teachers the worse the school, IME. The vast majority of staff in the very worst school seemed to see the children as being bestial and untamable and, as the producers of such wild beasts, parents were thought of as pretty much evil too, it seemed. I was really shocked at first when I heard the lack of respect with which teachers spoke of children and their parents. And yes, the teachers' lack of respect probably sprang mostly from the awful environment they were working in- I definitely couldn't have done their job in that school in a million years-but a proportion of teachers even in the better schools (whose jobs I still couldn't do- but hey, outsiders can comment too, can't they?!) seemed to have fairly similar views. I sat in on quite a few whole staff training sessions about positive approaches to behaviour management in different schools and they were greeted with unconcealed, eyerolling scorn by a sizeable minority on each occasion, even when what was said seemed to make a lot of sense, as fisil's approach does. I think some teachers' self esteem had been so totally obliterated that they just didn't feel they could embrace approaches based on their common humanity with the children; many would probably have denied that they had any common humanity with the children! It's so nice to hear that the more positive approaches are working for you, fisil. I bet it does cascade down to your staff and the kids even more than you realise, even if there are some dissenters.

We have the same scheme in our school, but it needs to be extended to cover more of the kids. I feel that lots of them would get far more out of it than making them sit in lessons when they have no interest in being there.

To my mind it is foolish and very insulting to only concentrate on the academic side of education, we should value the talents of all children, wherever they lie. We need people with degrees, but we also need plumbers, hairdressers, care assistants and shop assistants. We should have an education which meets the needs of all kids, not just trying to shoehorn everyone into one style of education.

I would relish the chance to teach kids a 'science for life' curriculum, but instead I have to plod along trying to make kids work on the GCSE science module which they hate and many of them will 'fail' ie not get the A-C that most employers want.