A level choices - school advice poor

[AllMimsyWereTheBorogoves]

The Student Room has done a survey, reported here. I suspect most people on MN are well placed to advise their children on this, but it might help some people to know that just choosing your favourite subjects is not always going to be the best approach. Bit dispiriting that teachers aren't already always saying that, though.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I'm certain you did, and didn't mean to imply otherwise.

I have looked at tables of UCAS points. I'm still a bit uncertain, TBH.

The thing is, the more you people insist that schools don't know what they're talking about, that admissions is some terribly complicated an opaque process, the more people get scared off applying. And especially people who maybe don't come from families where it's common to go to university/top universities.

Yet every year, students with perfectly acceptable grades in three or four A Levels manage to get in. As do students who do so-called 'soft' subjects as their fourth A Level. So, clearly, it is possible. There's no giant conspiracy to keep students out (I'm fairly sure!).

If someone doesn't realize that 3A grades is fewer than 5A grades, they have a bigger problem with university than the admissions criteria. But if someone thinks they've been failed by their school because the school recommended a perfectly sensible 4th AS, or didn't stretch to doing 5 A Levels, I think they are being had.

[Whitenosugarplease]

At the LSE advisers conference we were shown some fantastic personal statements. These applicants had been to talks, were clearly well informed having read some fantastic books and some were doing an EPQ. Again I was informed that they have the pick of the crop. Grades mean everything. And no they do not make allowances for A in everything but a C in GCSE English Language.

[Whitenosugarplease]

Yes LRD. Much better to have 4 grade A at A level rather than 3 grade A and 2 grade.

By the way simply having an A is not good enough it is the quality of the A that counts.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

But 'not good enough' for what? It varies. That's my point.

People talk as if these criteria are applied across the board without any thought, and I really don't think they are.

I'm sorry if this seems like nit-picking, or pushing a point - I just really hate that I know people who don't apply because they take these judgements as inflexible gospel, without realizing they might actually be in with a very good chance.

[TinklyLittleLaugh]

Interesting. My oldest two went to a large, successful sixth form college with a proven record of getting kids into Oxbridge, medicine etc. Their marketing material now makes a selling point of only expecting kids to do three A levels; no General Studies, no Critical Thinking, no Extended Project. They make the argument that three excellent A levels are better than four or five very good ones. I would be very surprised if they had gone down this route without a lot of careful research.

[Hakluyt]

"And finally, there was a girl on Snog, Marry, Avoid recently (we took note because she was from our town) off to do law at the University of Manchester with A levels in Law, Media, Photography and something else."

I find that incredibly hard to believe- are you sure it wasn't just made up for the programme?

[Bonsoir]

Three A A-levels are easier to achieve than 45 points in the IB (or, dare I say it, Mention TB in the French Bac S). Given the international competition, the best way A-level students can up their ante is by adding an extra A-level (at A or A).

[bruffin]

I suspect it is Manchester Metropolitan where you need 280-300 ucas points with no specification of subject and usual offer BBB/BBC

[HaremScarem]

RogueDad. I'm curious to know how recently you were involved in Oxford admissions?

[TinklyLittleLaugh]

Snog Marry Avoid
No it was definitely specified University of Manchester and she had all A grades. I remember because we were quite surprised.

Is it that there is a big gulf between Russell group and Oxbridge? I am interested as my third child is bright enough to be possibly in with a shout. If she needs four A levels then she will need to look at a different sixth form to her older siblings to maximise her chances.

[lecherrs]

In contrast to Roguedad, my DH works at an Oxford College, and discussions with his college's admissions tutor was that passion for the subject is what they're really looking for, not an ever growing string of A levels. Indeed, discussions with tutors at DHs current college and old one have really emphasised passion for subject over everything else.

Indeed, the Oxford Uni website says this:

"Some candidates take a fourth or even fifth subject, as this can be one way of demonstrating the academic ability required for the intense study of an Oxford degree.

This is certainly not the only way to demonstrate your abilities. Tutors may prefer a candidate who has read around their subject beyond school and college work, and who shows a great passion for their subject, over a candidate who may have taken more subjects, but who is unable to discuss their interests with any enthusiasm or in any depth.

We also advise candidates not to spread themselves too thinly. Our offers are made on the basis of letter grades rather than UCAS Tariff points, so grades between AAA and AAA would be sufficient to meet most conditional offers, but two As and two Bs would not."

However, his college whilst being a big name is only mid league on the Norrington Table. Perhaps other colleges have other priorities, or things have changed since Roguedad worked there ..?


But this thread certainly answers the thread title - why do schools advise so badly..? Well, it really is not clear cut what different universities want. Some unis actively value the EPQ and give reduced offers for those who take it (Southampton a massive supporter) but others less so. Teachers are not experts, and don't have the time to actively research all the different Degrees and universities and whims of the different admissions tutors. When the answer is not clear cut, it makes it very difficult to advise (especially when students don't know what it is they want to do!)

[AllMimsyWereTheBorogoves]

If in any doubt, please, please, please go to the horse's mouth and get her (not you) to email or phone (email better because you can go over it later) admissions to talk this through. MN is great but partial. For the vast majority of A level students this is a completely pointless discussion as they will do 3 full A levels and that will be that.

[HaremScarem]

With my DS's 'unusual' educational history we went to the horses mouth and got everything in writing. You only get four precious
chances with a medicine application and my DS didn't want to waste any.

Most (all?) medical school publish an admissions policy document. They are obliged to follow a fair and transparent admissions procedure.

Have a look at THIS MEDICINE admission policy for Sheffield 2014. It's crystal clear what they want. ALL students who meet the academic requirements which include three A levels plus decent UKCAT scores are long listed. Once they are long listed they are ranked for their personal statements and references. The top 650 from these rankings are invited for interview. In other words there is NO ADVANTAGE whatsoever in 'exceeding' the given academic requirements.

This 'tickbox' approach to academic requirements is not at all unusual especially for medical schools.

I've have three kids at Uni, one did the IB, one did four a levels and the third did three. They were all fortunate in that they knew what they wanted to study and were able to choose their A'levels accordingly.

DS2 did 4 A levels with the understanding that it would not benefit his application. (He does a maths based course at a Uni where his course is ranked as one of the best in the country). He only chose to do four a levels because he loved his subjects so much

My forth DC is doing three A'levels as we thought she would have a better chance at getting A's if she limited herself to 'only' three A'levels. If we thought she could easily get A's in four subjects the she would have done four. The reason being is that she is still unsure what she wants to do (eek!) and doing a forth A'level would maximise her options. She gets her AS results next week and if they are good she will do an additional AS next year alongside her three A2's.

[TinklyLittleLaugh]

That link for Sheffield certainly gives the lie to the idea that once you drop an A* or A you can forget about medicine.

[Whitenosugarplease]

The quality of the A grade is dependent upon how far over the A grade boundary a student has achieve. Typically top end students should be securing well over 90 in individual units.

Obviously I can't give specific detail but we received one rejection from Oxford this year saying that even with a stellar interview and a rack of A* at GCSE level one of our students had not achieved 93 in the different units and therefore there was no point in interviewing. Plus a Cambridge rejection for another student referred to unit scores not being high enough.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

That wasn't what I meant, sorry, white.

My point is, it varies quite a bit from person to person.

[Bonsoir]

Harem - you are very confused. A minimum qualification criterion to pass the initial screening process does not preclude additional qualifications from being desirable and a bonus in the selection process.

[mrscog]

One thing none of this discussion factors in is that University entrance for anyone aged between about 11-16 is going to be less competitive in future years. One because there is a dip in the population numbers for this age group and two from this September caps on numbers of students are being lifted, so Universities will potentially have more places to fill assuming they have space to fit the students in.

[HaremScarem]

Bonsoir. No, I'm not confused .

Of course medical schools want highly academic students but the selection criteria for the example I gave is clear. The student is NOT ranked on academics. The academic criteria is either met or not met. The criteria for the personal statement and the teacher references are given in the admissions document and does not include academics.

Clearly , there is going to be some overlap. A student with exceptional academics is going to have an easier time displaying other desirable qualities such as 'diligence' and 'orderly organisation' but that can also be done in other ways too.

If medical schools only wanted highly academic students to apply why wouldn't they increase the admissions requirements to include a few or a few more A*'s? It would make their lives much easier as they wouldn't get so many applicants. Bristol got over 17 applicants for every place in 2013 and yet they ONLY ask for AAAc. The vast majority of medical school are still only asking for AAA. Where universities are after more academic students Such as Cambridge they spell it out.

Not all medical schools have the same style of admissions policy as Sheffields but we found many that do. (At least 2 years ago when we did our extensive research they did)

[HaremScarem]

Btw I am definitely not saying that 4 (or more) A levels are pointless. . It obviously would put you at at an advantage for some universities and some courses and it also allows you to keep your options open. I'm just trying to highlight that there is a lot of bad info out there and that you need to 'go to the horses mouth' just as AllMimsy has said.

(My own DC2 took four A levels)

[TheLateMrsLizCromwell]

I can't imagine what the one that compromised his choices was- Practical Knife Crime or something?
great post!

TinkLittleLaugh similar to your case, our DC are at a leading indie where lots of DC go to Oxbridge and other RG unis - they do 3 A levels, and some do EP. They do not waste time on General studies.
Their view is far better to do 3 A levels and read around your subjects, as well as researching independently things that interest you, as well as having a life, and enjoying sports and other interests.
I am happy for my DC to do this rather than try to cram in 5 a levels to... prove what?
Also feel a bit sad for those DC conned into thinking 15 A* gcses are impressive. DC school does max 10, for same reasons as above, and the 10th is only if you are a native speaker of another language.
I teach in a states school, do not want to out myself, but they have just started a 6th form, and the Head is gung ho about the kids doing more that 3, to include General Studies (utterly pointless), basically to make the school look good for those parents who can be fooled by that

[boys3]

Perhaps I'm missing something on UCAS points.

According to the helpful link to the UCAS website earlier in the thread an A is worth 140 points, and an A at AS 60 points. The latter from a points point of view appears not to be a subset of the former. So an A/A combination for a given subject at A2 / AS give a potential maximum of 200 pts.

It is therefore perfectly possible to do just 3 A levels and score 600 pts if that is how the scoring works.

The argument by some that 4 or more A levels are either needed / and or achieved by successful applicants for the most elite universities seems to not be fully supported by the evidence.

These are the Cambridge stats for the 2013 admission cycle, tables 3.1 and 3.2 are worth a look.

www.study.cam.ac.uk/undergraduate/publications/docs/admissionsstatistics2013.pdf

[goinggetstough]

boys the UCAS point system doesn't quite work like that. If you take a subject to A2 and get an A* then you get 140. The previous years AS result does not give you any extra points for that subject. If though you take an AS subject and get an A but don't carry it on to A2 then the 60 points count.