A level choices - school advice poor

[AllMimsyWereTheBorogoves]

The Student Room has done a survey, reported here. I suspect most people on MN are well placed to advise their children on this, but it might help some people to know that just choosing your favourite subjects is not always going to be the best approach. Bit dispiriting that teachers aren't already always saying that, though.

[Hakluyt]

What were they? Theatre studies is an OK one for Russell Group. I think Religious studies is too.

[AllMimsyWereTheBorogoves]

If so, that sounds like a gift for the Daily Mail - 'Now teens can get A level in texting!' I'm sure there's a lot more to it than that.

[roguedad]

I'd advise parents with bright kids to look carefully at the Russell Group preferred subject lists - it's really very sensible. And stay on the list, apart from at most one unusual choice if you are doing four or more A levels. It works well even if you are not applying to RG uni.

[SlowlorisIncognito]

I think part of the problem is that a lot of teachers are not experts on university admission. I'm not saying they should be (although it would be ideal if the head of sixth at least had a clue), but subject teachers have a lot of other things to do. However, they should acknowledge they are not experts, and therefore not give advice based on their own ideas to students.

Students should be told to research university courses before they chose their A-levels, as there are some basic things that people need to be aware of- particularly if they want to do a science based degree.

However, a lot of universities do now offer foundation courses to those with poor A-level choices. I think it's better to have more solutions for people who change their mind, rather than focusing on everyone having to make absolutely perfect choices at 16.

[lecherrs]

The trouble is, I'm a Philosophy lecturer, I am not an expert in careers advice. I do not know what A levels are the best for studying golf management, criminal psychology, speech therapy or any one of the 100s of different university degrees / job options that are out there. I have never been trained to do this, and I do not what the different universities require. I know about my subject, but that's about it.

When I was at school, throughout year 9, we had weekly careers lessons where we looked at jobs / careers and what we wanted rot do in life, what our priorities were, and what we needed to do to achieve our goals. I didn't go to a particularly good school, but this was something that we did have that was very good. In recent years, careers advice such as connexions have all but vanished in so many schools. I would like to see careers advisors or lessons back, where children are given proper lessons / advice by those who do know a lot, and can give better advice.

However, I also think part of the problem is that different universities want different things. My husband works at a top university, and he changed colleges within the same university. We asked the admissions tutors from both colleges a question, and got two very different answers. It's hard to advise accurately, when there is no clear cut answer a lot of the time!

[lecherrs]

Ha ha, cross post incognito!

[Hakluyt]

It is very tricky. For the conventional, traditional courses- law, medicine- that sort of thing it's easy. But for less traditional courses and less prestigious universities it's different. Kids got university places from my ds's school with A levels that people like me would dismiss in an instant. I don't think it's straightforward.........

[peteneras]

”I'm a bit surprised reading the article that someone wanting to study medicine doesn't think A level biology might be a bit useful.”

Actually, to be precise, the article says, ”Yet another lost out on a place to study medicine at one university after being wrongly told A-level biology was not needed for this particular course.”

And what’s more, whoever that said A-level Biology was not needed to study medicine at university is quite CORRECT, you may be surprised to learn! Even Oxford, Cambridge and Imperial College and many others do NOT require A-level Biology per se, for their Medicine course (only AS-level required), but you’d be a fool to apply to these places without it.

[ThatsNotWhatISaid]

Chemistry is far more important for medicine applicants than biology.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Shouldn't we take this with a (big) pinch of salt?!

Sure, some students probably do receive bad advice. But TSR is full of students complaining. That's a large part of its function. It must be very easy to say 'ooh, no-one told me! How dare they?!' while quietly forgetting that you skipped that unimportant-seeming talk or you zoned out when they were saying some boring stuff about options.

[Mumoftwoyoungkids]

And what’s more, whoever that said A-level Biology was not needed to study medicine at university is quite CORRECT, you may be surprised to learn! Even Oxford, Cambridge and Imperial College and many others do NOT require A-level Biology per se, for their Medicine course (only AS-level required), but you’d be a fool to apply to these places without it.

My best friend is a Cambridge medic. She does not have A level (or even AS level) biology. Things must have changed over the last few bloody hell - it's 17 years since I didmy A levels years.

[Hakluyt]

I agree, LRD. If I had a pound for every time I would have made a complete arse of myself if I had gone barrelling into school to complain that "nobody told my child X or Y" I would be a rich woman!

[Bonsoir]

I recently talked to a boy who had just done his A-levels at a top public school. Of his four A-levels, one was a poor choice that had severely compromised his university applications. He was due to go to a middle ranking university despite a 4 A* prediction. I really wonder what his parents thought after paying all those fees...

[Hakluyt]

"I recently talked to a boy who had just done his A-levels at a top public school. Of his four A-levels, one was a poor choice that had severely compromised his university applications. He was due to go to a middle ranking university despite a 4 A* prediction. I really wonder what his parents thought after paying all those fees..."

That's a bit odd- universities only want 3 A levels. If he had 3 facilitating A*s I can't imagine what the one that compromised his choices was- Practical Knife Crime or something? Could you say a bit more?

[ElephantsNeverForgive]

Why is this rocket science?
33 years ago, long before the internet the top set at my rural back water compressive gathered together and agreed we'd all send if for prospectus for what we wanted to do at university. We weren't 16, we were 13/14. We wanted to make sensible O level choices.

And yes we did have an ulterior motive, the French dept. were Shit, we wanted to look our head of year straight in the eye and say "we have checked, we do not need a MFL for, long list of science courses"

Also allowed DF who wanted to do SALT that her preferred London university was perfectly happy to take Welsh as it's MFL (head of Welsh was lovely).

Honestly if we could be bothered when it took stamps and envelopes and time. What's the problem today.

I know DD1 has checked she does not need maths A'level for the type of science course she wants to do.

[HaremScarem]

Generally, if a University asks for, for example, two sciences plus a third subject then that is what they want. They don't 'secretly' mean we want three sciences They are not trying to trip people up with hidden agendas.

We always double checked everything with the actual admissions pages of each course my DC applied to and if we were doubtful about anything we contacted the Course Admissions Staff.

My DC4 found her A'level choices much harder than her elder siblings as she wasn't sure what she wanted to study at Uni. It makes things much more tricky.

[HaremScarem]

It's not rocket science but it is confusing if you are receiving incorrect advice from parents and teachers. I often read incorrect advice being given on this forum. . For example, I've seen plenty of bad advice about medicine applications, the importance of a 4th A'level and the relevance of Further Math.

[roguedad]

Good universities absolutely do NOT just want 3 A levels. If you look at the profiles of successful applicants ( the Guardian has one ) you will see the people actually doing serious subjects at top universities have an average of over 500 points. According to the Guardian tables, for e.g. medicine, 28 medical schools had an average UCAS entry tariff of 500 points or higher of admitted students, with Cambridge top at 651. 500 points is exactly AAAA, and 630 is between AAAAA and AAAAA. They might well say on they web site that 3 is necessary, and indeed not have a hidden agenda, but it is by no means sufficient given the level of actual competition, particularly from students originating in the Far East. This says that to have at least an average chance of getting into a good medical school you need top grades in 4 or more A levels. That same A*AAA level of 500 would apply to the top 13 unis for Physics, the top 5 for Chemistry, the top 6 for English, and the top 11 for mathematics, where Cambridge hits an average of 679 for successful entrants. Even before you start allowing for the tosh subjects, schools advising kids to only focus on 3 are badly letting them down, unless they have a firm offer based on grades in 3. People need to focus on the level of real competition, and not on what unis might say on their web sites, and the best way to do this is actually to figure out the profiles of kids who have been successful. Have a look at e.g., for medicine, and get an idea of the UCAS tariffs of actual admitted students:
www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/league-tables/rankings?o=Entry&s=Medicine
The first question kids need to be asking themselves is - how do I make myself like someone who has actually succeeded at this process?

[Hakluyt]

Good lord- I must tell dd. She must have imagined her 5 offers, 4 from RG based on 3 A levels.

Oh, and there's my niece- offer to do Architecture at Cambridge - based on 3 A levels............

[roguedad]

Hakluyt - that's great to hear, and your DD and niece are probably very highly regarded, so congratulations. Nevertheless, Cambridge architecture students on average arrive with 571 UCAS points. They might well have liked your niece enough to make an offer based on just 3, but as you can easily work out, most of their arriving students will have more than 4 A levels and top grades to boot.

[ElephantsNeverForgive]

Of course top universities admit students with four A*, they look at application forms, statements references and things and give offers only to the very best.

That doesn't mean those offers aren't A*AA, but it does mean they know many applicants will continue with their fourth subject and arrive with higher grades.

[Hakluyt]

Most people who go to Cambridge have top grades.

But very many people who go to RG universities have offers based on 3 A levels.

[BeckAndCall]

I'm with hak - DDs BioNatSci offer for this year is for 3 a levels A*AA, as is the offer for everyone of the Cambridge and Oxford friends ( about 15 from their year hold offers) - the only exception is those doing maths and further maths. And the situation was no different for her older sisters year or her brothers.

You categorically do not need 4 A levels for Oxbridge ( or anywhere else where she got an offer form - Bristol Exeter York,Southampton....)

Perhaps the confusion comes from the UCAS points measure? Remember they've all got another A in an AS level which counts for some points and many have grade 8 music which also counts?