A level choices - school advice poor

[AllMimsyWereTheBorogoves]

The Student Room has done a survey, reported here. I suspect most people on MN are well placed to advise their children on this, but it might help some people to know that just choosing your favourite subjects is not always going to be the best approach. Bit dispiriting that teachers aren't already always saying that, though.

[Abra1d]

I went to Oxford in 1982 with an offer of two Es (actually got three As) but that following successful entrance exams and interview.

[CatherineofMumbles]

Hmm - yeah, even then, bit of a stretch. and didn't Charlie also go to Cantab with mediocre As?

[lljkk]

It amuses me that in the 1980s Prince Edward went up to Cambridge with DDE under his belt. Old Boy's network, much?

[sashh]

There can be a huge difference in the offers made and actual results students achieve.

Way back in 'my day' a VI former in the year above had an offer from Oxford of 2 E grades. And I think that was just because you needed them to get a grant.

He didn't get E grades but the uni wanted him so made him a good offer.

[fairylightsintheloft]

and I think the last two pages have more than answered the Ops question about why kids don;t get better advice. Different unis have different and ever changing requirements, different views of the value of GS, CT, ExP, Personal statements. With the best will in the world, unless a school is able to fund a member of staff to have a zero timetable and JUST be the UCAS expert (also researching overseas opportunities which are increasingly popular since tuition fees came in), schools will not be able to advise with the level of preciseness required. The info is out there but I do think the onus is primarily on the student to find out what the requirements are for THEIR course. Its not hard to do. Also I agree with a PP who said that actually schools give LOTS of guidance that just goes straight in one ear and out the other. Our L6th had 2 days in June when they came back from exams on UCAS, admissions, personal statements etc and I can GUARANTEE that all that info will be asked for again numerous times by many students and their parents. Its NOT simple, it constantly changes, and schools simply cannot provide the support needed for every single student if they refuse to take the initiative themselves (which, if they want to do well at Uni, frankly, they should be doing anyway).

[titchy]

Yes total tariff score includes general studies, critical thinking, grade 6+ music and speech exams, gold arts award and a whole host of other quals! See here for full list:

www.ucas.com/how-it-all-works/explore-your-options/entry-requirements/tariff-tables

[boys3]

thanks wnsp. My interest stemmed more from roguedad's thoughts around tariff points on the league tables. DS1's firm offer is with Cambridge so grade as opposed to points based, therefore had not really considered overall points.

However whilst I've got you do you know if the UCAS points for subjects such as Critical Thinking and General Studies included in the average UCAS points entry shown on the uni league tables?

[Whitenosugarplease]

Boys3 - your sixth form should run an info evening in the autumn term to explain the points system along with other procedures. We run an UCAS for parents evening which tends to be very well attended and enables us to iron out a load of misunderstanding.

[Whitenosugarplease]

Typically with the AQA board there are two units for AS and two for A2. The exceptions being maths, science as there is a small practical unit and I think languages.

Your child should know what board he/she is doing.

[senua]

boys I think that I have worked out what the second column is about but it is deduction, I might be totally wrong!

Normally students start A Levels by doing an AS: they either carry on to A2 or they stop at AS. To get an AS you must pass three units; a further three units gets you an A2.

However, there are things called Double Awards at A Level (cf the double awards for GCSE science). If someone starts with a Double Award but decides at the end of Y12 to drop half of it but carry on with the other half then they end up with the "A Level with additional AS" i.e. 6 units of an A2 plus 3 units of an AS, so 9 units in total. I think that Double Awards are usually for more applied subjects eg Art & Design, Travel & Tourism.
Link to edexcel

[goinggetstough]

boys I am not sure about the second column but I think those UCAS points refer to specific courses. They are not the more usual GCE A level courses that are taken and therefore have a different tariff.

As for the 3347 people who scored more than 540 points - was that in the Cambridge link you attached in an earlier post? If so, that does say underneath the table that these students took 3,4,5 A levels including general studies and critical thinking. For a student with 3 A* = 420 plus a 60 for an AS and then maybe a music exam or EPQ. It could be done that way.

My DCs were similiar to your DS and UCAS points were not relevant, their offers included letter grades.

Good luck to your DS on Thursday. I hope he gets the grades he needs.

[boys3]

just to add GGT I'm not doubting you at all, just struggling to understand what the UCAS second column table actually refers to.

I guess at the end of the day DS1 has his grade specific offers, so his actual points are a bit neither here nor there. But maybe relevant in terms of broader advice and context from schools in general.

[boys3]

GGT, sorry still struggling with this, although your explanation makes a lot of sense.

But if that then is the case how, in 2013, did 3347 DCs who only took 3 A levels score more than 540 UCAS points? Maybe 420pts for 3A*s, plus a 60 for a fourth AS A grade, plus maybe an EPQ?

What does the second column and associated points on the UCAS website, link below, therefore refer to?

www.ucas.com/how-it-all-works/explore-your-options/entry-requirements/tariff-tables


Sorry to be so dim on this

[Slipshodsibyl]

The successful applicants I mention are all this year's Upper Sixth.

[Slipshodsibyl]

A lot of contextualising goes on. A lot. If you go to a school which is inexperienced you are more likely to be excused some anomalies. That said, two successful applicants for medicine I know had AABB at AS, one from a rural comprehensive, one from a famous school. Another, a clever student from a very well known school but with spld is set to do one of the most competitive subjects at Oxbridge with three A levels, including Art with only one truly 'academic' subject among the three. The student aced the aptitude test.

If you go to a school with more expertise in applications, more is expected: three A Levels with some serious extra interest or obvious intellect seems fine. But Whatever the official line in practice, four is not a waste of time if a student has the capacity and opportunity. Several tutors have told me quietly that they like to see four. I am sure not all feel the same. I prefer three and an epq, but four seems to trump that ime.

[goinggetstough]

boys the UCAS point system doesn't quite work like that. If you take a subject to A2 and get an A* then you get 140. The previous years AS result does not give you any extra points for that subject. If though you take an AS subject and get an A but don't carry it on to A2 then the 60 points count.

[boys3]

Perhaps I'm missing something on UCAS points.

According to the helpful link to the UCAS website earlier in the thread an A is worth 140 points, and an A at AS 60 points. The latter from a points point of view appears not to be a subset of the former. So an A/A combination for a given subject at A2 / AS give a potential maximum of 200 pts.

It is therefore perfectly possible to do just 3 A levels and score 600 pts if that is how the scoring works.

The argument by some that 4 or more A levels are either needed / and or achieved by successful applicants for the most elite universities seems to not be fully supported by the evidence.

These are the Cambridge stats for the 2013 admission cycle, tables 3.1 and 3.2 are worth a look.

www.study.cam.ac.uk/undergraduate/publications/docs/admissionsstatistics2013.pdf

[TheLateMrsLizCromwell]

I can't imagine what the one that compromised his choices was- Practical Knife Crime or something?
great post!

TinkLittleLaugh similar to your case, our DC are at a leading indie where lots of DC go to Oxbridge and other RG unis - they do 3 A levels, and some do EP. They do not waste time on General studies.
Their view is far better to do 3 A levels and read around your subjects, as well as researching independently things that interest you, as well as having a life, and enjoying sports and other interests.
I am happy for my DC to do this rather than try to cram in 5 a levels to... prove what?
Also feel a bit sad for those DC conned into thinking 15 A* gcses are impressive. DC school does max 10, for same reasons as above, and the 10th is only if you are a native speaker of another language.
I teach in a states school, do not want to out myself, but they have just started a 6th form, and the Head is gung ho about the kids doing more that 3, to include General Studies (utterly pointless), basically to make the school look good for those parents who can be fooled by that

[HaremScarem]

Btw I am definitely not saying that 4 (or more) A levels are pointless. . It obviously would put you at at an advantage for some universities and some courses and it also allows you to keep your options open. I'm just trying to highlight that there is a lot of bad info out there and that you need to 'go to the horses mouth' just as AllMimsy has said.

(My own DC2 took four A levels)

[HaremScarem]

Bonsoir. No, I'm not confused .

Of course medical schools want highly academic students but the selection criteria for the example I gave is clear. The student is NOT ranked on academics. The academic criteria is either met or not met. The criteria for the personal statement and the teacher references are given in the admissions document and does not include academics.

Clearly , there is going to be some overlap. A student with exceptional academics is going to have an easier time displaying other desirable qualities such as 'diligence' and 'orderly organisation' but that can also be done in other ways too.

If medical schools only wanted highly academic students to apply why wouldn't they increase the admissions requirements to include a few or a few more A*'s? It would make their lives much easier as they wouldn't get so many applicants. Bristol got over 17 applicants for every place in 2013 and yet they ONLY ask for AAAc. The vast majority of medical school are still only asking for AAA. Where universities are after more academic students Such as Cambridge they spell it out.

Not all medical schools have the same style of admissions policy as Sheffields but we found many that do. (At least 2 years ago when we did our extensive research they did)

[mrscog]

One thing none of this discussion factors in is that University entrance for anyone aged between about 11-16 is going to be less competitive in future years. One because there is a dip in the population numbers for this age group and two from this September caps on numbers of students are being lifted, so Universities will potentially have more places to fill assuming they have space to fit the students in.

[Bonsoir]

Harem - you are very confused. A minimum qualification criterion to pass the initial screening process does not preclude additional qualifications from being desirable and a bonus in the selection process.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

That wasn't what I meant, sorry, white.

My point is, it varies quite a bit from person to person.

[Whitenosugarplease]

The quality of the A grade is dependent upon how far over the A grade boundary a student has achieve. Typically top end students should be securing well over 90 in individual units.

Obviously I can't give specific detail but we received one rejection from Oxford this year saying that even with a stellar interview and a rack of A* at GCSE level one of our students had not achieved 93 in the different units and therefore there was no point in interviewing. Plus a Cambridge rejection for another student referred to unit scores not being high enough.

[TinklyLittleLaugh]

That link for Sheffield certainly gives the lie to the idea that once you drop an A* or A you can forget about medicine.