A level choices - school advice poor

[AllMimsyWereTheBorogoves]

The Student Room has done a survey, reported here. I suspect most people on MN are well placed to advise their children on this, but it might help some people to know that just choosing your favourite subjects is not always going to be the best approach. Bit dispiriting that teachers aren't already always saying that, though.

[AllMimsyWereTheBorogoves]

As I understand it, conditional offers made to A level students are almost always for results in 3 subjects, not 4, no matter how many the applicant is taking.

An applicant with enough time, energy and brains to get top grades in 4 subjects may as well go ahead and do 4 subjects.

However, if the applicant thinks the two possible outcomes are:

1. 3 A*s if s/he sticks with 3 A levels
   

or

1. AABB at best if s/he tries to take 4 A levels
   

in almost all cases the applicant would be better advised to go with option 1.

The big exception, I believe, is that for most subjects that require Maths A level, if Further Maths is also available, the student should have a crack at that too, but not at the expense of another subject, so in that case 4 A levels would be a good idea, but with FM very definitely in fourth position.

[Lunastarfish]

I don't think there are that many degrees that require specific A levels. Clearly if you want to do medicine or another science subject you'll need science A levels. If you want to study a specific academic subject like History/English it may look odd if you don't have the corresponding A level but overall it is the grade that is importatnt.

That said some degrees are notorious for liking academic subjects at A level. Applying for a law degree at a RG uni with A levels in media studies, PE and drama you'll likely to struggle to be offered a place. Also for a law degree, many universities actively hate A level in law!

Just let your children study subjects they are good at and enjoy. A mixture os academic subjects will likely get them into whatever degree course they decide to do. A levels in History, Maths and English combination for example open all sorts of degree options up.

[Hakluyt]

How many points does an EPQ give you?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I think it's human nature to blame something.

So if you don't get the university you wanted, you blame the fact your fourth A Level was Critical Thinking and you agonize, or you tell yourself if only you'd known not to choose Theatre Studies it'd have been fine.

It doesn't mean that you're correct.

I know people do get badly advised, but I'm struggling to imagine a situation where a fourth A Level choice could drag you down all by itself - it would be the combination of subjects with how well you did overall, and you'd blame a subject choice because it makes you feel better.

[bruffin]

Allmimsy
Ds has 3 offers on for 3 A2s that include further maths

[ElephantsNeverForgive]

Further maths is an anomaly which inflates the number of DCs who appear to have 4A/A* grades. For a natural grade A mathematician it is not a full A levels worth of extra work.

Likewise some DCs have extra GCSEs and possibly A levels because of being bilingual or at least having access to support in a home/parental language. DDs DF did German because her DM is German (and now teaches it). Her secondary enters pupils for Polish and Russian GCSE.

[bruffin]

Lunastar
For engineering you need maths and physics. Some unis will give you a lower offer for FM

[HaremScarem]

Where is Creamteas when you need her? .

My DS got three medicine offers, he withdrew from the fourth (Bristol) as he already had offers from his top two choices without any GCSE's or any equivalent. He was doing the IB diploma and literally had no proven exam success when he applied.
We contacted practically every medical school and most, but not all, said that as long as he met their IB diploma requirement then he would be at 'no disadvantage' to any other applicant.

The 4th A level debate definitely applies to some courses but they really are a minority. Off the top of my head I can think of about ten students who are CURRENTLY studying medicine or who are at Oxford or Cambridge who 'only' have three A'levels They are all (as far as I know) really bright and have zillions of A*s at GCSE etc etc.

[Bonsoir]

Hakluyt - his fourth A-level was RE when he needed Chemistry.

[eatyourveg]

Hakluyt The EP attracts 70 points for A* See here Stick in a merit at grade 8 music and you have another A in terms of points

[Hakluyt]

"Hakluyt - his fourth A-level was RE when he needed Chemistry."
What were his other 3, do you know?

[Bonsoir]

I do but I am not going to post any more details - it's not my life to post about!

[Hakluyt]

So not much of a contribution to the discussion, then,is it?

[Northernlurker]

Interestingly dd got advice from her school to do maths along with two sciences and a humanity for the science based degree she is interested in. Her preference though was to do two sciences and two humanities to AS (she's an all rounder)so she e-mailed a RG university and Oxford. RG said they liked to see maths but her choices (all facilitating subjects) were likely to be fine. Oxford said do two sciences and make sure you pick things you enjoy for the rest. She then did FM for GCSE and enjoyed it so we're still not sure which way to go - will decide on results day I think.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I think it's fair enough to protect privacy.

But, it's very unusual a university would say 'we have rejected you because we want these specific four A Levels, and you have only three of them'. Given bonsoir says this was enough to have 'severely compromised' not just one application, but applications, plural, I wonder if there's not some confusion? Did he really have several universities all claiming they were rejecting him for having three out of four required A Levels? Or was it that they wanted Chemistry and he simply didn't have it - and nothing to do with it being a 'fourth' AS?

I am making this point because I think it is really easy for people to fix onto a 'not my fault' explanation. I'd probably do it myself.

[AllMimsyWereTheBorogoves]

Bonsoir, that sounds to me like a case of a teenager whose ideas about his degree choices changed during sixth form. Not necessarily the school's fault in that case.

[Hakluyt]

I find it very hard to understand how he could have not realised he needed chemistry for a specific degree course and thought RE would do instead. However badly advised.

[TinklyLittleLaugh]

DD's mate has an offer to study medicine based on A levels in French, English and Chemistry.

When we were looking at sixth form colleges the tutor we spoke to said they had a lad off to do medicine with Maths plus two non science subjects. She made the point that he was a "big", very charismatic personality, but even so, it shows A level choices are not the be all and end all.

And finally, there was a girl on Snog, Marry, Avoid recently (we took note because she was from our town) off to do law at the University of Manchester with A levels in Law, Media, Photography and something else.

[roguedad]

I think there is some very serious misunderstanding here. Let me give you an example, which while it no longer, or very rarely, applies, illustrates the principle. A while back, Oxbridge applicants who had succeeded in the scholarship exam were made offers based on meeting matriculation requirements, which amounted to a conditional offer of 2E grades. So on the logic being employed by some here, that would imply Oxbridge was looking for 2E grades. They were clearly not - the kids being offered 2Es were the ones the uni really wanted. The point these days is that the field of applicants for the top universities are awash with candidates doing 4 or 5 A levels and targeting top grades in that many. Conditional on that field, admissions tutors look for quality, and make their offers. Those offers might well be based on just three subjects. It might be the 3 subjects that are most relevant. The more the university likes the candidate, the lower the offer. There is simply a very low correlation between (i) the final offers made, and the combination of (ii) the general competitive level, and (iii) the real underlying expectations of admissions tutors in terms of the quality of the students. The offer is the last stage of a complicated process in which the students have already been evaluated, and is probably more an indication of how much the uni wants the student. It is a very poor guide to how many A levels kids should take at A level in receiving advice at the start of 6th form. For many subjects at top unis, you will not even be in the game for consideration unless you are attempting 4 or 5. Whether your final offer is on 3 or 4 topics is largely a separate matter. I think a lot of the confusion arises from teachers and parents just not getting this point. There are exceptions, and the Guardian tables may well include some ABRSM exams etc., but I urge people to study them and encourage kids to get the kinds of profiles shown there. Our top unis are increasingly filled with kids from the Far East who think about nothing else. BeckAndCall - I absolutely disagree with you about Oxbridge. As a former Oxford College tutor doing admissions, I can tell you that we were really looking for high fliers doing the 4 or 5. The fact that some offers were on 3 subjects, e.g. AAA in Maths, Further Maths and Physics for a Maths degree serves only to indicate that we were not that bothered, having also separately tested their maths, about the grades some might have got in other topics like Chemistry or Music or something like that. It most certainly does not imply we were looking for students only attempting 3 A levels. Again, an exception might be made for a student in a very weak school, or a student with particular talents. Please do not use what you might have heard anecdotally about the offers people receive at the end of their application process, with the real expectations of top universities, let alone the very high level of competition. They are not the same by a very long way, and are no basis for advising upcoming 6th formers.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

'For many subjects at top unis, you will not even be in the game for consideration unless you are attempting 4 or 5.'

Such as what, and where?

I think you're confusing two things. Yes, sure, if admissions tutors are looking at Candidate 1, who is doing 5 A Levels and looks brilliant, and Candidate 2, who is doing 3 and looks equally or less brilliant, they might well go for Candidate 1.

Does this prove they won't look at Candidate 2 in any circumstances? Or that they won't recognise why Candidate 2 might be taking three subjects where Candidate 1 takes 5 (plenty of schools won't be set up to allow 5 subjects)? Obviously not.

Does it mean schools should always push students to do 5 subjects? That would be stupid, and patently unnecessary since many students do perfectly well on 3 or 4.

[Northernlurker]

That's an interesting post Roguedad and makes me think that one option dd has considered which is to do maths to AS as well as the other 4 she's picked is not that bad an idea......

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

*conflating rather than confusing, I should say. Sorry, that came out rudely.

[TinklyLittleLaugh]

Do people really put music exams on their UCAS forms? Pretty sure my DS didn't (solid Russell group offers based on studying three A2s).

[roguedad]

LRD… I gave very serious consideration to people like your "candidate 2" on many occasions, particularly if there was a weak school, an illness, a family problem - as I said there is always room for exceptions. You really should look at those tables of UCAS points of successful applicants to answer your what and where question.

[Whitenosugarplease]

agree with Roguedad. At the Cambridge Advisers admissions conference this year we were told that Oxbridge attracts top quality international applicants, they are operating in a global market and are basically looking for brains on a seat.

In addition we were advised that anyone wanting to study sciences should ideally have maths to at least AS level.