We haven't had a state vs private debate for a while! What did you think of the Fiona Millar programme on schools?

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Well?

BTW I also taught in the Japanese equivalent to a comp and the behaviour was appalling!

jimjams - I don't understand 'outside london you're not banned from faith schools'. My original point about all of this was that at our local primary RC you are banned - unless you are christened RC. (I live cheshire)
I agree totally with aloha and where does it end marialuisa if we start to have schools for tories, schools for labour supporters, etc etc (I realise you weren't advocating political schools but I can't agree you wouldn't have a problem with it). Aren't we in danger of segregating our children into little pools of insular cliques?

oh and before anyones says it - I realise that RC schools can be ethinically diverse but it is still segregating on the basis of one belief.

KR- Well I think RC schools can be more selctve than most faith schools. What I'm saying is that once you get into an area where there are plenty of schools to choose from the selective element disappears. My son's school does not select on faith- depited being a C of E school. The local schools don't particualrly select on house prices either as there are enough decent schools for there not to be a massive price hike next to a good school. This situation is very different to the one when we were living in London. There to get into a c of e school you had to be an active churchgoer (Iand usually that wasn't enough you had to live on top of the school in an expensive house as well). To get into a good state school you have to be able to afford a half million pound house. What's that if its not selection?

Church schools brought education to the poor initially. In some areas they have become selective (but I still prefer selection in terms of faith than money to be honest- and I'm not religious at all). But in large areas of the country they are not exclusive and not selective. My son goes to one, our second choice school where we were also offered a place is a church school. The school I went to is a church school (oversubscribed becuase they're always in the top 100 primary schools lists but they select on distance from the school- not faith- they're in a village). It may be picky but it is a fallcy to assume that all church schools are some exclusive club creaming off the richest in the area.

Marialuisa, are you seriously saying you'd be happy to have schools that discriminated against children on the basis of their parents' politics??? I'm genuinely staggered. But I do suppose that at least that is a consistent position with thinking faith schools are OK. Jimjams, are you in favour of political schools too?! As I say, for me this is a matter of ethics and morality as we don't live in the catchment area for a faith school and there is at least one OK primary in the area (which is so poor generally and mixed that there is no question of being economically driven). To me, this is a moral principle. Actively rejecting children on the basis of their parents' beliefs (which does happen) is IMO immoral in the state funded sector. Actually, I think it is immoral anyway, but the element of state funding definitely makes it worse IMO. Religion belongs in church, IMO, not in schools, and not at the taxpayer's expense. Suppose black kids were banned from white schools, would that be OK?

Havn't read all of this but was motivated earlier on to ask "why is it that "faith" schools are considered better schools?, why is it that they "tend" to do better at GCSE/Alevel results?
Don't know the answer to this just very very intreguied...I know that some Cof E schools operate a selection procedure but all secondary catholic schools I know of take children form the feeder primary schools and all catholic primary schools take catholic children form the parishes it serves.Catholic schools are not neceserily in the "BEST" areas - and do in some cases pull from a very poor area - so that is not an obvious answer.
I was eduated in various catholic schools ( with quite a few non-catholics whoich must have exceeded the 10% rulesome in what would be considered "good" areas and some in not so good areas

Aloha - you don't choose to be black or white - you choose your religeon.

jimjams wrote>> "It may be picky but it is a fallcy to assume that all church schools are some exclusive club creaming off the richest in the area.""

hear, hear! the only people we know who have got places at the school (rc) we'd like ds to go to are working class. in fact, since the rc church champions what is known as the "option for the poor" we have been rather afraid that we will not get a look in because we will be perceived as too middle class/affluent!

ah jimjams, agreeing with you, an unaccustomed pleasure...

yes, sonnet, i've made that point before too. our local school being a case in point.

DDs school is partly funded by the governemnt so they have to offer places to non RCs - if a school is completely church funded it is able to ban all non RCs.

Well, Twinkie, I know what you are saying, but I can't choose to believe in something I don't believe in. But apart from that the issues of discrimination and rejection of children for something that isn't their 'fault' is the same.
Political schools are a better comparison. Bossykate, how about Tory schools...or Labour ones?

Twinkie, your dd's school is almost entirely funded by the taxpayer, the church contributes a measly 15% - yet is able to select 90% of the pupils on religion. How can that be right?

KR- so long as there were schools for children whose parents supported no political party/any other political party I wouldn't have a problem with it. Why should I? Also, if you read the small print of your local RC schools' admission policy i bet there will be something saying that "spare" places will be allocated to non RC kids. it's in the school's interests to fill places. The 10% rule mentioned varies from LEA to lEA. my brother's school is 45% non RC pupils.

Aloha, I entirely agree that religion shouldn't be taught in schools. Unfortunately no govt has ever wanted to change the status quo which states that RE (of a predominantly Christian, i.e. CofE) nayure must be taught in all schools. i would be happy for faith schools to go if truly secular schools in the french style were the norm. But they're not. I also find the "established" position of the CofE within the state outdated. Again, no political party is willing to change that. Remember, RC schools were originally established because Catholics were discriminated against in the education system. As for black vs white, it's a different argument. but there are "black" schools, here and in the USA that are open only to black pupils.

aloha, don't know why you're pushing me on this. i've said ad nauseam now that i think there is a good case for questioning how faith schools are funded. of course i don't believe in tory or labour schools. i don't think you are winning people over with this analogy - unlike your mcdonald's one further down which is masterly

Also Twinkie, we are talking about kids here, and the children have no more say in whether their parents are Catholic or Muslim than whether they have black or white skin. It's discrimination, whichever way you look at it.

BK, what POSSIBLE difference is there between a religious school and a political one? Really, I'm not being difficult here, I just cannot see a shred of difference. Both are based on a person's ideology. Please, please explain to me why you oppose political schools but support religious ones because I cannot, in all honesty, see any difference.

But is discrimination always wrong? I don't think it is, even though it's a word which has such emotive overtones now.

BTW my friend's kids go to a catholic primary in Brixton... I wonder if it's the same one... all the kids there have parents who are baptised catholic (as are the kids) and go to church every single sunday. No exceptions.

On the other question Aloha, whilst i see the analogy, in RL for most people political beliefs are more transitory, as I said there are few (some, but only a few) who would choose to be defined by their politics. Many people are comfortable with having their faith/lack of it used as one of the many "definitions2 of who they are.

Yes, I think to reject children from state funded schools simply on the basis on their parents' creed, colour or politics is always wrong.

Marialuisa, you'll get no argument from me about the desirability of secular schools! I think religion and state should be separate and that children should not be indoctrinated with religion in schools (note, indoctrinated, not 'taught about'. But that doesn't make it right IMO that a good proportion of state funded schools are simply not available to the children of those of a different religion or none.

aloha, i could turn the question round. your objection centres primarily on the discriminatory impact - why shouldn't these schools be open to all if they are state funded? what about if you lived near jimjams where anyone of any denomination could get in. would your objection be so forceful in that case?

A belated response to dinosaur's question;

What is it that those who send their children to private schools think that they will get from those schools that they won't get in the state sector

My reasons for choosing private above the state primary on offer in my locality are:

1. smaller class sizes. 15 in a class plus a full time class room assistant
2. Although a christian school it is mexed race and religions. V. different form the "all" white local primary
3. Stronger discipline - politer children (was shocked when I visited local primary re the answering back and ignoring the teacher I witnessed!)
4. Wider selection of activities - ballet, tap, drama.
5. better sports facilities - sports activities more often in the school week.
6. After school care - as a working mum I need that
7. NO sats testing....
8. GOOD academic results whilst having the balance of more non-academic pursuits.