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Original poster

Is our PTA being stupid and, if so, should I do anything about it???

32 replies

Freckle · 12/07/2006 17:08

DH and I attended the junior school's production of a show last night. Took DS1 and DS3 with us. DS2 was performing. Just before you entered the school hall, the PTA had a table with a big sign "XXX's Bar". They were selling bottles of fizzy pop and had boxes of red and white wine - pop was 50p a bottle and wine was £1 a "glass" (plastic cup - and it was sh*t wine too, although that didn't stop me drinking it ).

While we were sitting in the hall waiting (it was stiflingly hot in there), I gave DS1(12) some money and told him to get everyone a drink. He came back with pop for himself and DS3 (DH didn't want anything) and a glass of red wine for me - and the PTA had happily sold it to him!

Our local Tesco Express has just sacked an employee for selling alcohol to a 16 year old, so what do you think would be made of a school's PTA selling alcohol to a 12 year old??

I went in today to talk to the head about it but he was busy so I spoke to the school secretary who was greatly shocked. I also raised the issue of whether the PTA had a licence. The PTA's view is that apparently you only need one if you charged for the wine, and the PTA has chosen to class the payment as a "donation". Well, in my book a donation is something where you choose how much you are going to give. Advertising wine at £1 a glass is not requesting a donation so I think they are sailing pretty close to the wind here.

Anyone know about this type of bending of the rules?? I've searched around and I cannot find any information which says that, if you make a donation for alcohol, you don't need a licence. I'm sure pubs and other venues would be making use of such a ruse.

If they are being incredibly stupid about this (and I think that they are), what, if anything, should I do about it??

OP posts:
MrsJohnCusack · 12/07/2006 17:11

hmm
I know that when we sell interval alcholic drinks at concerts, we are not allowed to 'sell' it but only take donations - but you can have a sign that says 'Suggested Donation - £1' or whatever and the means you don't need a licence (bearing in mind we're usually in a church as well where I don't think you can sell alchohol anyway)
you must say donation on any signs though, not 'Wine £1 per glass' or similar

CristinaTheAstonishing · 12/07/2006 17:12

Blimey, Freckle, why do you feel the need to do something about it? If you worry your son might drink the wine on the way to you then don't ask him to buy it. The money thing should hav been made more obvious that it's a donation. If you want them to have a licence then next time they might not bother doing any alcohol at all.

Original poster
Freckle · 12/07/2006 17:20

Who said I asked him to buy it? I merely asked him to get a drink for each of us and he came back with the wine, presumably because he knows that I do drink wine.

And are you suggesting that, if I fancy a glass of wine at an event, I should just go along with a breach of the law because it suits me?

Alcohol licences are there for a reason.

OP posts:
CristinaTheAstonishing · 12/07/2006 17:23

Then go ahead and do something about it.

MrsJohnCusack · 12/07/2006 17:24

Freckle, what did the signs say? It's not hard for them to comply, so if they're not saying 'suggested donation' then they are being pretty stupid

Original poster
Freckle · 12/07/2006 17:24

Oh and the reason I think I might need to do something about it is that the Tesco employee was not only sacked but charged with a criminal offence. I suspect the PTA won't be sacked but I doubt they will welcome being on the receiving end of criminal charges if it is held that a licence should have been obtained.

OP posts:
Original poster
Freckle · 12/07/2006 17:25

The signs said "Wine £1".

OP posts:
CristinaTheAstonishing · 12/07/2006 17:27

Why don't you then just point out what happened rather than jumping straight in with talk of criminal charges. Presumably the Tesco employee had more training into this than a mum who took on a role maybe noone else wanted. So maybe she was just being stupid or ill-informed.

Yorkiegirl · 12/07/2006 17:27

Message withdrawn

CristinaTheAstonishing · 12/07/2006 17:29

What purpose would a fine serve? It would come out of funds raised, so less to spend on children's toys or equipment, and noone will want to take on the job in the future.

PandaG · 12/07/2006 17:29

In the past I have know of raffle tickets being sold with a glass of wine or soft drink thrown in for free. I'm organising PTA BBQ on Friday, and we will have a bar, but with a licence - not too hard to get for a one - off event. Think I would just have a quiet word with chair of PTA to say sign ought to say donation in future,, and maybe should be more careful re the age of the customers.

Yafta · 12/07/2006 17:33

Maybe joining the PTA and helping them rather than critisising would be the way forward. The more people there are the easier it is to have people checking things like this.

Original poster
Freckle · 12/07/2006 17:34

I didn't just jump in with talk of criminal charges. I posted this message to see if anyone knew that it was OK to sell wine for "donations" and if not, what should be done about it.

I realise that these are mums who are doing something for which they may not have any training, but most people know that you need a licence to sell alcohol. Also it is clear that they have considered the matter, else why the talk of donations?

OP posts:
Original poster
Freckle · 12/07/2006 17:35

I'm not criticising. I am asking for information.

I may not be on the PTA, but I do a lot for the school in other ways.

OP posts:
Ladymuck · 12/07/2006 17:36

Cristina - because that is how the law works - and hopefully future PTAs will be better informed.

However I don't read Freckle's note as implying that she is going to report them to the police!!! I think that she is wondering who she should approach to point out that, "hey, isn't there a risk here". PTA types could easily get huffy, so is it better coming from her or should she get staff on board.

Freckle, other than no-one sold to under 18s, we had a similar discussion at our PTA barbq, where alcohol was sold. We came to the conclusion that we'd say nothing as there is a very high percentage of lawyers involved already in the PTA, so it was either sorted or they were otherwise happy with the risk.

Twiglett · 12/07/2006 17:37

if you sell wine you DO need a licence

if you sell a ticket which includes wine then you don't

think they were being incredibly stupid there ... but probably thoughtless rather than stupid .. tbh the kids were all with family so the odds on them sneaking a drink were small

MrsJohnCusack · 12/07/2006 17:37

Freckle the signs are wrong then

have just had a look and it seems that the key is the type of premises licence that the hall has. look here
most schools should hold the right licence if required I would have though, but if they're going on the donations thing, then their signs do need to say that

MrsJohnCusack · 12/07/2006 17:39

oh I missed all those

anyway I totally read all this as Freckle hoping that school couldn't get in trouble rather than attacking them

it's the 2003 Licensing Act they need to look at anyway, it changed quite a lot. have realised the reason we can do the donations for alcohol thing we do at concerts is because the venues generally already have premises licences

Original poster
Freckle · 12/07/2006 17:40

Part of my concern was that the PTA don't really know all the parents, particularly dads or some mums who are not at the school gate. They don't know what they do for a living. There were also grandparents there and family friends. Any one of them could be in the police, a member of the LEA or licencing authority, etc. So it was not so much that criminal charges would be brought because of anything I did, but that there was a high possibility that someone else might have (a) noticed the sale of alcohol to a minor and (b) realised that a licence had not been obtained.

Thank you to all of you who have posted helpful messages.

OP posts:
mrsbang · 12/07/2006 17:51

Haven't read all the posts so apologies if repeating.

TBH I'd be more bothered about the child being able to get the wine, rather than whether or not a licence is required.

My understanding is that you can't "sell" wine but you can "ask for a donation". That can be sorted really easily for a future event.

I would, however, take issue over the child being given the wine, however it was purchased. You could either approach the Chair/Secretary and discuss it with them, or contact the Head.

Clary · 12/07/2006 17:51

Freckle I would have a word with someone.
My understanding of this is that unless the ticket into the event includes wine (which we had for a fashion show we did) then they do need a licence. The prob with a licence of course is that it costs and you have to get one for each event now, but that's no excuse for what is (imo) sailing pretty close to the wind.
I think even "suggested donation" is a bit dodgy. If we are actually selling wine over and above the ticket freebie then we always get a licence.
I think you should maybe have a quiet word with the head voicing yr concerns not over yr child being sold a drink as much as the PTA putting themselves at risk. hth

Yorkiegirl · 12/07/2006 17:53

Message withdrawn

Original poster
Freckle · 12/07/2006 17:55

Which is what my concern was. I could have invited you and your dh to see the show and then he may have witnessed what was happening. The PTA may feel that parents wouldn't do anything to damage the school, but that may not go for others who attend.

OP posts:
mummydear · 12/07/2006 18:08

I think your PTa are being very stupid , if that was our PTA and our Headmistress got to know about that going on at school premises she would have their guts for garters !!

I don't think the LEA would look lightly upon thsi either.

It is always the possibilty that the Chair of the PTA could get prosecuted for this, very unlikey but the buck stops with them.

As everyone has said no problem with donation for wine but selling alochol to underage is not good for the schools image as well.

Tommy · 12/07/2006 18:11

I think the PTA should have it pointed out to them that this shouldn't have happened and hopefully they will be able to rectify it for the next event.
It simply is not worth them getting into trouble over this as the time may come when they want to apply for a licence and the licensing committee would haver to take this sort of thing into account.
My Mum is a local councillor on the licensing committee and she would have had to say something to had she been there. You never know who is going to turn up at things like this.
I would write to them.

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