What advantages does private school bring you?

[GeorgianMumto5]

Genuine question which, I'm sure, has been done to death. Dd has a small chance of a place at a fee-paying secondary, which is something we'd never previously considered, but now it's sort of cropped up, I feel duty-bound to give it some proper thought.

I know the classes are smaller, they are selective (I am uneasy about that) and they often provide more opportunities to engage in sport and music. Anything else I should consider?

For background, dd is bright, bit of an all-rounder, conscientious, friendly, well-liked without being in the 'in-crowd', resilient, eager, funny...all qualities that I think will help her to thrive in any setting. Oh yeah, and she'll already know kids at either of the two state secondaries we're considering, or the fee-paying secondary and she gets on with all of them - seeks out their company and they hers, etc.

I think I have tremendous guilt about even considering private. Please feel free to tell me I either should/shouldn't or to simply get over myself. Thank you.

[rabbitstew]

I don't think that any more than I think wealth is synonymous with arrogance. But sometimes it is.

[Tasmania]

rabbitstew There is also a lot of invert snobbery going on from certain corners of Mumsnet. Just as arrogant in my book...

[Tasmania]

But seriously... OP... you keep on asking what the advantage of a PS is, but each time someone gives you an answer, you seem to become all "leftist". What's the point in asking?!? You seem to have already made up your mind, so why not just keep dd at state school? No matter what we say, you won't change your mind anyhow.

if I was to pay £10k+ on a private day school, I would like to get my money's worth and opt for the "proper" one. That's what you normally do in anything in life, i.e. you won't buy a car full price if the engine is missing, won't you?!?

I often describe "proper" independent schools to American friends as follows: a good school with all the benefits of a US summer camp (i.e. activities). In the US such summer camps cost US$10k+ per 7-week stay. Yes, that includes overnight stay, but given kids at private school pretty much spend the whole day there, the school fees compare almost favourably.

[Somethingyesterday]

Not leftist. This horrible (not the OP who is lovely..) idea of "social mobility", the idea that there is some state in 21st century Britain that people should scramble over their neighbours to escape - is extremely conservative. Here we have all been, cogitating since Friday(!) and the OP does not strike me as someone who needs to be escaped from.

The point of a school is not to wrest someone from their life, but to make the best of what you are. But if you already believe that private schooling is primarily about class struggle.....

OP Visit some schools. Not just the nearest one. it takes a lot more effort than that to find the right place. You will be able to see the advantages when you talk to the staff and pupils.

[Somethingyesterday]

In fact, read this:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/education/1375677-Is-it-worth-paying-for-prep-school

Again, ignore any rubbish, but read the whole thread. Even though you are not looking for a prep school it should give you an idea of "what people think about when they think about traditional independent schools..."

Enjoy

[rabbitstew]

My dh went to a "traditional independent school." He hugely appreciated the opportunities he was given and the fantastic education he received. However, he would be the first to admit that, as some state schools have a disruptive element, so "traditional independent schools" have their arrogant, over-privileged cohort. To pretend otherwise is frankly as ludicrous as pretending there aren't state schools where education is disrupted by chair throwing thugs.

[rabbitstew]

Tasmania - the "proper" private schools are considerably more expensive than the "improper" ones. It is actually the pro-private school parents who are doing the best job of putting the OP off the private school she is considering, by implying she'd be wasting her money, because it doesn't sound like a "traditional independent school."

[Tasmania]

Yes, rabbitstew - there are black sheep in both sectors. However, I get a strong feeling that people like to hush over the ones to be found at state schools, but openly and quite loudly complain over the ones to be found at private schools.

People tend to say that the "disruptive ones" at state school may not come from "good" families, etc., and hence we should show leniency. However, "bad" families exist on both sides of the fence. You may have a poor and disjointed family living on a sink estate - but you can also have a moneyed (at times titled), hugely dysfunctional family living on a grand estate. The outcome would be similar: lonely children who have to cope in life without much support. They both show this in different ways, but in essence, it may be a cry for help.

[Tasmania]

And yes, I know that people are putting her off the private school she is considering (I am, too!). But that's because I would want to get value for money in all aspects of life - and by sending dc to a private school that isn't really a private school (but a copy of a smaller state school from a leafy suburb) that charges you 75% of the fees... you won't get that...

[Somethingyesterday]

Yes.

The interesting (exciting) thing is that the OP has a Dd who is clever enough to try for a funded place at a presumably selective school. It's perfectly natural to think first of the local options - and indeed that may well turn out to be the best fit after very careful consideration of all the other possibilities.

The OP's description of her Dd suggests that she may well be capable of doing well in competitive entrance exams and it seems a shame not to even consider the sort of school that really is different to a state school.

Particularly since well established trad schools have so much more money available for bursaries.

That's the thing.... The big, rich school (as I'm sure I've repeated a hundred times....) will have a much larger proportion of ordinary children - on bursaries - than the local non-trad that may only offer one a year.

As a matter of logic (as if I know anything about logic...) a private school that automatically feeds into the state sixth form is never going to be significantly different to the state schools that also feed to it. They may all be superb. But (other than a smart uniform, nicer buildings and boasting rights for parents) it's hard to see what the "advantage" might be.

[GeorgianMumto5]

Did I equate elitism with arrogance? If so, I apologise. My friend is arrogant (as a result, I think, of trying to hide a gnawing sense of his own unworthiness) and attended what looks, to me, to be a school for the elite, but I don't think that's at the heart of his problem.

Yes, I did sound Downtown. Sorry. If I'd like Dd 'raised' it is to opportunities that might otherwise be difficult for her to access. I don't want her 'better' than others. If she is 'better' it will be due to how she thinks and acts, not because of where she goes to school. All sorts of things are helping her to develop her inner core and sense of self, not just school. A school's outlook will help her to look upon the world and herself in a particular way, but any school suited to her could help there. That's what I'm after - a school that best suits her. (As are we all, I imagine.) I'm fortunate in that there is, at least theoretically, a choice of schools from which to pick a best match.

I keep going all leftist? I am leftist, so that's probably why. I am also a bag of contradictions and muddled philosophies. Those will no doubt keep revealing themselves. I realise that makes conversing frustrating. Sorry. I am also genuinely interested in the all the advice and opinion you have to offer.

SomethingYesterday you are putting my thoughts so much better than I can. I type something and it sounds ridiculous, you type the counter-argument and I think, 'Yes! That's what I meant!' Please follow me on all threads and in RL too.

I've been reading some of the private school threads and so far been very taken with the idea that dd will have access to more sport, more music and more activities. It all looks a bit more 'whole person'. I will very carefully consider all the options. I realise I'm completely ignoring a whole load of options by not considering boarding or a commute, but I can't ('won't' is actually more accurate). I've looked at the two other local private schools for girls. One we cannot afford and the other I do not like. It is not, IMO, a good school and offers pretty much the antithesis of what I want for Dd. I've just realised, there is one other. I'll look into that.

Again, thank you. I know I sound like I still don't know what I'm doing. I don't! I'm beginning to understand it all better though and I do appreciate your help with that.

[Somethingyesterday]

Hey OP quickly before I read your post - No, my "elitism" reply was to rabbitstew.

[ICanTotallyDance]

I have come rather late to this party but I will throw my two cents in.

In my experience, within my family (most of my generation were sent private), private schools are worth the money.

However, before you decide, do compare academic results between the schools in a variety of ways. Look at overall, look at value added, if possible look at people who have similar children to your DC and see how their kids turned out. Ask about pastoral care and bullying policies, ask about leavers destinations (beyond sixth form) and ask about disciplinary policies. Ask about homework loads, ask about learning support, ask everything of any school you're considering!

There are some crap private schools out there. Ask old girls of the school (recent ones) how their experience was.

If the school is a good fit for her, she will thrive (this is true of any school, of course) and their should be a good programme in place to deal with any bumps in the road, as well as good programme to help with her interests or gifts (it helps if the school allows children who aren't necessarily the best to be involved, e.g. a novice player in the chess team, a quiet girl in the debating team, a drama queen on the exchange, etc).

I can pm you the "why you should attend this school" page from my sister's old school, if you want, which gives you a general idea about private schools, but here are some other resources:

All American sorry, didn't realize this until now:

This Whole Website, Actually, Not Just This Page

here

here

Just remember, as these are from the US, public=state.

Personally, I think the big thing you get is a tight community feel with great school spirit. Everyone shows up for events, supports student initiatives, have the same set of ideals/morals and stick to them (e.g. studying is good, bing drinking is uncool), helps each other study, it's not always a walk in the park but you're all in it together, there's a tangible but indescribable feeling where you're at a school with a strong school spirit. You're not guaranteed to get this at a private school, nor are you guaranteed it to get it a state school, but I think chances are higher if you go to a private school to get this feeling. And it's worth every penny.

You said boarding is off the table, but how about for sixth form? You may both feel differently when she is approaching the end Year 11 and unless your finances chance, you will need to be planning ahead for a Year 12 boarding bursary.

Anyway, in your circumstances, I would wait to see if I got the bursary before setting your heart on a school (trust me, it's CRUSHING as a child if you get rejected due to finances on a school you've fallen in love with) and then decide from there. Ultimately, your daughter's happiness and education come before every other aspect.

(And don't be surprised if you get in and it isn't all wonderful from the start. At major transition points in my old school (year 1, 4, 7, 9) about half of new arrivals took over a term to catch up academically and settle socially. It can be tough but it's not unusual.)

Sorry for the long message, I got carried away as per usual.

[ICanTotallyDance]

And that was binge not bing drinking, sorry.

[rabbitstew]

Tasmania - I don't think people do actually like to hush over the bad sheep found in state schools at all. I do, however, agree they are naïve if they think all state schools are capable of dealing with the black sheep effectively, or all the special educational needs children, etc. In an area where the choices are a state school with a bullying problem and low academic expectations, and a private school that is not much different from a good state school except for the £12,000 a year fees, I do not think a parent would necessarily be wasting their money to pay £12,000 a year in fees rather than move house at vast expense, taking themselves and their children away from their established networks and friendships. I also don't think such a parent would be wasting their money to decide to do this rather than seek to put their children through several entrance exams in order to gain scholarships and bursaries for boarding schools if this was seriously outside their comfort zone. My dh went to boarding school and has openly said it just would not suit everyone, however fantastic the school. No harm in posters suggesting it as an option to the OP, of course, though: it is an option some people would be willing to take up.

As for parents in an area where the state schools seem to be perfectly good; even then, it really depends on what the alternative private schools offer: they don't have to be all singing, all dancing like the top public schools to be a good fit for a child with specific established interests and talents, or specific established needs. To say that only a "traditional independent school" would ever be worth paying for is just inaccurate, even for a bright, articulate child. And there is still the issue for some people of getting to the point where the amount of experiences and money being lavished on a child just seem to be so far removed from the normal experiences and opportunities of the majority of the population that, however character improving, it feels uncomfortable to be offering so incredibly much to so few, however clever and appreciative they are. If you can't wholeheartedly enjoy the lavishness of it and are made to feel a bit uncomfortable by it, then it's better not to try and join in - it is none of it essential to bring up a valuable, worthwhile human being that could make you proud.

[GeorgianMumto5]

Thank you again. Sorry, Tasmania, I only just took in your point about my mind already been made up. It honestly isn't. I veer back and forth between my options. My mind is about as far from being made up as it could be.

ICanTotallyDance, yes please, I would love that pm.

[ICanTotallyDance]

PM'd you. Good luck with this choice.

[Tasmania]

rabbitstew But isn't that just life? I'll never have the resources of an oligarch and dine at Cecconi's everyday, watch Wimbledon close up every year, etc. I have to cope with that,too?

Ditto, you can spend your cash travelling the world with your kids for experiences others will never have. It's not just school. Would you prefer communism - which has been proven to not really work?!?

[rabbitstew]

No, I'd prefer to be happy living with myself. We all have our own personal limits when it comes to self-indulgence. I really don't understand the specious argument that you either have to join in with and approve of all levels of excess or you have to be a communist. Most people fall somewhere between the two extremes and moderate their lives accordingly. I'm OK living in a world where other people have different limits. It's life that you can't force people to approve of your choices any more than you have to approve of theirs.

[Tasmania]

rabbitstew - it was you who pointed out that it isn't fair for other kids that so much is lavished on a few. You can moderate that if you want to - but I'd rather like to see parents spending their hard-earned money on education than on toys, designer clothes, cars and the like...

[Tasmania]

... you have to spend it on something. Otherwise, what's the point in working so hard?!? So that the bank can keep your money???

[Somethingyesterday]

What!

I turn my back for five minutes and you've packed Dd off to America?

Well you have no argument now against looking at the next county. So - just in case she should come back - do take a look at these ; purely for comparison.... (They're not schools I have personal experience of, and other people will no doubt suggest others...)

St Edward's Oxford

City of London School for Girls

Wycombe Abbey

The Perse School

Oxford High School

[rabbitstew]

Tasmania - yes, I would also rather see parents spending their hard earned money on education than toys, designer clothes and cars. If you're going to spend your money on anything, it seems like one of the most meritorious options to me. However, it isn't really that simple a choice, is it? The fact remains that even if parents don't spend money on cars, toys and designer clothes, the vast majority just don't have the cash for public school, or indeed any "lesser" type of private school, particularly if they are also trying to be sensible about saving for their old age, looking after other relatives in their infirmity, giving money to charity and dealing with other societal demands and expectations. Life is complicated - even paying for a good education does not come without complications. I really don't blame people for prioritising a fabulous education for their children, though, just point out that it is not something that others feel able to make with the same clear conscience, despite recognising the value of a good education. I envy those who see it as a black and white choice, I really do. I just can't stop seeing it as a little bit like choosing a Porsche when a Renault would have been loved and appreciated just as much.

[GeorgianMumto5]

She has family in the States. I could...

[Somethingyesterday]

Awesome commute