languages-am I an old fogey

[miggy]

DS1 (10/yr6) has had exams this week and I have helped him to revise. He has done French since yr1 and latin since yr4 with an equal amount of time devoted to each on a weekly basis. Latin is taught "the old fashioned way" ie this is a verb and this is how you conjugate it, plus sentence construction and learning great chunks of vocab. French is taught "the trendy way" topics such as saying hello, things in the classroom,my family- these seem to have been repeated ad nauseum since yr1. As a result, he can translate and construct fluent sentences in latin and given a dictionary can make a good go of translating text. In french, he can say phrases, like "I am 10" but has no idea which word means what, how to conjugate verbs etc-he couldnt even tell me one french verb! It doesnt matter in the great scheme of things, he is only 10, but it seems such a waste. Is the old fashioned way better? or perhaps his french teacher is rubbish. Just a bit sad as we visit France often but have yet to get to ancient Rome!

Miggy

Just a thought to throw into the pot. Might it be that he just doesn't enjoy/like French? Only reason I ask is that sometimes we just never learn much of something we have little interest in, no matter how long we have studied it.

I did French and Latin in Yr1 and Yr2 of Secondary School. Could do French quite well, but did not enjoy it. Latin, I loved (strange, I know), possibly because of all the associated History that was part of the subject and which was learned alongside the language (this didn't seem to happen with French, probably because it is a modern language being taught on a 'everyday words' basis). Is your son keen on History?

Anyways, basically, I dropped French and continued with Latin for another 3 or 4 years (also, probably connected to my enjoyment of Latin and like of History, I took up Greek (Ancient) and studied that for about 4 years).
Both languages I did well at because I enjoyed them and the associated History - this, in my experience, made the difference. Yes, they are pretty useless languages nowadays, as people have joked, but so are a number of things we learn in other Subjects (how many of you use all the knowledge you gained in maths, enlish, R.E, Economices, history, geography etc., etc, on a daily basis?). Mind you, I had to 'fight' to drop French (did Art in place of it) and was frowned upon for wanting to do Greek (had to drop Science). Wouldn't have minded doing Greek and Science but Subject clashes in those days were very common and something had to give.

Sometimes we focus so much on what we think is right and proper for people to study that we forget to ask what they actually enjoy studying.They then struggle and push themselves to achieve in Subjects they 'hate' whilst all the while a Subject they could excel in has been pushed to the side. Off topic slightly, but just think of the pressure so many kids are put under nowadays to achieve - perhaps the pressure would be lessened if they were allowed to follow their instincts more and do Subjects they liked.

Oops, sorry if I have rambled on, hope it makes some sense though.

butterfly

(who also has had lovely holidays since enjoying all that 'Roman - Greek' history)

I actually think you British are in a very ufortunate situation when it comes to learning other languages. Whenever you go abroad people just want to speak English to you, because they want to practise their English...I guess you don't have to make an effort, and if you do people might not make an effort back....
I agree you cannot learn a language very well at school unless you are naturally very good at languages. It can give you a good foundation though and I think especially in French grammar is important! In Sweden, even small children speak quite good English, partly because we are surrounded by English films, music etc....At the time they start school, they already know a little English.....

But KS, I don't think anuone's saying that you canlearn a language from grammar lessons alone. Personally I found that understanding the grammar gave me the springboard I needed, spending time in France, listening to music, watching films and reading gave me the understanding of which rules could be broken (in everyday speech) and the confidence to "try out2 new vocabulary.

Oops, re-read that. Didn't really mean 'pretty useless languages' in the sense it seems to read.
I have found both languages helpful throughout life and in many varied ways. Yes, they may not be 'spoken' nowadays, but both give the person learning them a good grounding in language (in general), history, logic, and much more besides.

Totally agree with marialuisa -as well learning should not be boring but kids should understand that unfortunately it cannot be exciting all the time - you need to learn and that's it. Anyway anybody likes learning only to discover that they can improve and can get better. I understand the system you went through (the old foggy) was probably too rigid, you need a balance - a mixture of the "trendy bit" and the "old school" -

Ha Ha KS! That's the only French I remember from school too.....

This thread is interesting. We live in a perpetual dilemma as regards our kids learning a language.

The local kids of ds' age (almost 6) speak a dialect of German, Swiss Geman and specifically Zurideutsch. He is at an International School where teaching is in English with German lessons 3 times a week. However, unlike his Swiss counterparts, he is expected to begin to read and write German - High German - which is not the same as what is spoken in the playground. Yes, he has acquired a very basic vocabulary from his 2 years worth of lessons and experience but that doesn't enable him to converse in any shape or form (he could give his name if pushed) or even to tell bigger kids to get lost when they pick on him. Even if he did have the vocab and grammar to do so they probably wouldn't understand him because of his accent and their dialect.

dd who is 29 months has a few words of German now and surprises us but realistically she will not become German-speaking unless we immerse her in the language. I speak it a bit and dh is fairly confident so they are without the reinforcement at home. It will be interesting to look at this again in a few years time to see whether their exposure to another language gives them any advantage in learning them formally later on.

Bobsmum, I too did a Latin oral competition at school - think it was a bit of the Aeneid!

so glad that the general consensus is that I'm not an old fogey
KS- michel thomas-hmmm, the students on the tape really are annoying, I found myself shouting at them not to be so stupid (so get funny looks whilst driving). I did learn things though, and good refresher as many years since O level. Have got last 2 hrs of "advanced course" to go and then might hyave a go at the Spanish version. Found it very hard not to take notes though, he is very anti that, but I am compulsive note taker!
Gaelou-absolutely agree-Exactly what I was trying to say., sorry you couldnt find a school to let you teach your way.
Bloss-yes its "the control" aspect -making sense of a language not just learning phrases.
Glad this has sparked a debate, I think languages are very important and generally in uk we are too complacent. A good standard of modern language teaching from an early age would be a real advantage.

I once told some german tourists we were on a trip with that we had been kept awake by a 'bomb' in the night when I meant we had been kept awake by the storm. Serves me right for showing off my inadequate german. Couldn't work out why they looked so shocked.

Don't worry, Bron, I'm not remotely offended! I think it's ridiculous too. In fairness to the university, I was meant to spend time in Italy (only three months though) - I just didn't go. My own stupidity entirely and I freely admit that my failure to get anything of much use from my degree was my fault. If I was at university now it would probably be different but when you're 18-21 the pub can assume greater importance than it should, in my case anyway.

Also, I could read Italian fluently and as practically the whole course was about literature and I chose to study nothing pre-1500ish probably no-one ever realised that I would have been in trouble if faced with a real live Italian. LIterature was always my interest so the course suited me. If I had wanted a more contemporary course with emphasis on the language I would have gone elsewhere. But yes, it is crap to have a degree in Italian (from an Oxbridge university!) and not be able to speak the language fluently.