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Original poster

DEBATE: Should League Tables be abolished?

62 replies

rbj949703 · 30/04/2006 23:24

\link{http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4960730.stm\League Tables}

If we send our kids late for tests they would be counted as an unauthorised absence surely. DD1's secondary school is constantly towards the bottom of the league tables, even though with the exception of last year GCSE results have been improving.

I think we should abolish league tables, but there still needs to be some sort of system so that we, as parents can compare schools when making choices.

OP posts:

PinkKerPlink · 03/05/2006 12:14

I havent even read the one for my sons school of choice
maybe i am foolish

beef · 03/05/2006 12:21

Yes

DominiConnor · 03/05/2006 12:28

I'm not quite sure what you mean by us not being the worst educated. To be sure we import many educated immigrants, but far too few to really alter the numbers.

But on literacy, numeracy, science we scrape along the bottom. Indeed French kids use much the same books as English kids for English at the same level. Maybe you can find some E.European state who does marginally worse than us at one particular subject, but there is no plausible weithing you can give for our numbers that get us out of the bottom end.

Apart of course in maths.

As it happens the anecdotal evidence I get is that we are off the bottom, indeed talking to the person in charge of a world class maths programme at Oxford he was talking of preferential treatment to make sure some English kids get admitted.

By "english" I don't mean white, I mean any kids who have been victims of the crassly incompetent mess we call an education system.
I can't however say that we are the worst at teching maths in the developed world.
This is because when the arts graduates in the civil service were told to produce the numbers they got them so wrong they could not be used.

Botswana succeeded in this onerous task, as did the Palestinian Authority, even whilst some of it's civil servants were engaged in fighting the Israelis.
You will however be glad to know that on average English kids tend to do better than those in the PA.

Uwila · 03/05/2006 13:17

I like league tables because they tell me something about the the other children who attend the school, and not just the ability of the school. This is very important to me. My choice of school is weighted very heavily on the league table performance. I don't want my children going to school with a bunch of underachievers, even if the teachers themselves are fantastic.

Uwila · 03/05/2006 13:19

And, as a foreigner, the English don't strike me as particularly uneducated. Though I have never researched the statistics.

Surely we Americans score at the very bottom when it comes to foreign languages.

prettybird · 03/05/2006 13:29

DominiConnor - I know I'm being pedantic, but this is a thread about educational standards - so.....

..... please would you stop putting an apostrophe into "its" when you are maining the possessive "belonging to it" (as in "its civil servants).

It devalues the valid points you are making!

plummymummy · 03/05/2006 13:51

DC I wish you would stop saying "we" when you're not even British.

prettybird · 03/05/2006 13:53

.... and of course, I should have previewed, so would have noticed my typo, when I wrote "maining" instead of "meaning"

plummymummy · 03/05/2006 13:55

With regard to the dramatic statement you made about British people being the worst educated, perhaps you would be kind enough to divulge your evidence base.

plummymummy · 03/05/2006 13:58

I don't wish to be petty but dh went to the States to do his degree because he deemed it easier than the British standard. We did our degrees at the same time (I studied here)and compared notes. He still believes it was an easier option.

Uwila · 03/05/2006 14:08

Think there is a huge range of education in the states. Some is certainly regarded as second to noe. And some is... well... appalling. My impression is that the same is true here in Britain.

plummymummy · 03/05/2006 14:09

I'm sure you're right Uwila.

Uwila · 03/05/2006 14:12

That's what DH says word for word (inserting real name for "Uwila") when he's not listening.

Uwila · 03/05/2006 14:14

I think the range in education is exactly why we are so competitive about chool places and why league tables are such an important tool for parents. It helps those with a bit of ambition and motivation avoid the crap schools.

prettybird · 03/05/2006 14:16

When I was at St Andrews University, we used to get American students coming over on exchanges mid way throur=gh their degrees and being very put out that they were being put in to 1st year classes........ and still they struggled!

That was over 20 years ago though.

Uwila · 03/05/2006 14:19

That's because you all talk (and spell) funny and they couldn't understand the professors.

Uwila · 03/05/2006 14:19

That's because you all talk (and spell) funny and they couldn't understand the professors.

plummymummy · 03/05/2006 14:24

Ah the spelling and the grammar ! I must admit to being a bit of a snob in this department

prettybird · 03/05/2006 14:24

With regard to the orginal post, I don't agree with league tables, as I don't see how they in isolation tell you anything.

The SUnday Times did a shock horror expose of "the figures they don't want you to see" with statistic of reading/writing/arithmentic results at the end of primary school (and some other stats for secondary schools).

Ds' school came out really badly (as did most of the Glasgow schools) - yet I know it is an excellent school with regard to the "added value" it provides.

What the Sunday Times didn't print as prominently was the fact that the stats were wrong for the Glasgow schools - they didn't include those children who had already achieved those standards "early".

What bugged me too was the fact that it went on about "the politicians trying to keep this info from parents". What is more relevant as a reflection of the school and its ethos is the HMI report, which goes into detail how the school is performng. And that has always been a matter of public record.

And the other important thing for us, as parents, is to visit the schools for ourselves and get our own impression of what they are like.

Uwila · 03/05/2006 14:28

Ah, but I'm not so silly that I use them in isolation. I would choose a school solely on the test scores, but I might rule one out solely on bad test scores.

Uwila · 03/05/2006 14:29

oh frick... I wouldn't choose solely on test scores... Oh you know what I meant.

And grammar shmammar!

plummymummy · 03/05/2006 14:35

I suppose it depends on what you value in education doesn't it? I value good literacy and that includes good grammar

prettybird · 03/05/2006 14:38

Uwila - I wasn't meaning to imply that you did!

What bugs me is the Sunday Times going on about these stats in isolation and claiming that parents aren't given the information with which to make decisions (and then giving them incorrect info ).

Rubbish.

wessexgirl · 03/05/2006 14:41

I don't see the value of the league tables in their current form, though the value-added ones are more relevant. League tables have resulted in fewer children being entered for GCSEs and more schools 'playing safe' and entering children for a low exam band if there is any risk of them underperforming in the higher level exam. Too many variables make up good or bad schools - exam results are just one, and an easy one to doctor at that.

SenoraPostrophe · 03/05/2006 17:18

where are your literacy/numeracy stats coming from then dc? and anyway, why does a small difference in the literacy rate (which could be down to the ideosyncracies of english spelling, if such a difference exists) mean that the english are the "worst educated in europe?"

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