If you can afford private education but remain in the state sector...

[TheseJeansHaveShrunk]

It's going to be hard to avoid this becoming another state v private thread, but what I'm interested in is a slightly different take on that debate. It's not "which is better?" but "if you think state school is better even though you could afford private education, then why is that?"

The question is based on the assumptions that the DC in question is/are reasonably bright (so might benefit academically from academically selective education), that the state school is non-selective (as most people don't have access to grammar schools), and that you hope for your DC to go to a good university (to make the £££££ fees worthwhile!)

I've been mulling this over ever since I heard some maths professor from Cambridge talking on the radio about the age-old private v state inequality of Oxbridge admissions. He was all for improving access for state school applicants but said that the simple fact was that for maths, even the best state schools generally teach only to the A-level syllabus, whereas the best private schools take their maths/further maths A-level candidates well beyond the syllabus and so the state school applicants are at a huge disadvantage - they simply don't have the starting level of knowledge required for the course.

This made me wonder: with this sort of unequal playing field, if you have the choice of private education, what reasons might you have not to take it?

Would be interested to hear from those who've made this choice - how it's working out, or if your DC have finished school now, how did it work out? Did they go to good universities/get good jobs, etc? On the other side of things, if you paid for private schooling but now regret it, why?

My DC go to a state school by the way.

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A French "private school" is not an independent school in the English sense. The teachers are paid are state employees whose direct superior is not the school or headteacher, and they must follow the French NC.

The big difference is that French écoles privées select their pupils, recruit their teachers (but then cannot manage or fire them) and levy a small charge. They are probably religious schools (95%) which colours the moral teaching in the school (state schools are secular) and parents may (but this is not always true) be a bit better off than average and so schools can offer more extra-curricular activities.

Private schools in France were traditionally less academic than state schools - parents chose them either because they were Catholic or because their children had been thrown out of state school. That was the situation when our generation were children. But the inexorable decline in state education combined with private schools' ability to select pupils has meant that discipline and standards have been better maintained in private than in state schools (despite the same curriculum and teachers) so there has been a big move to private schools. But they don't really serve very clever pupils well (and don't serve the lower end of the curve at all).

If people are ideologically opposed to state control of education or health system or anything else then they invariably blame state control for the problems in the system rather than looking at the problems themselves.

Other countries like Finland show that the state can control the education system and perform very, very well.

Equally privitisation can lead to monumental cock ups - like the rail system now.

The closest parallel to a French école privée is an English state Catholic school, with a small charge (paid monthly and often waived for poorer students. There are often major sibling reductions too).

pickledsiblings - both are true. When you set something free, it can innovate but just importantly it can show those who are not free what freedom looks like (and how they might steal ideas from it).

fivecandles I'm interested in your comments further back about G and T summer schools online support groups etc for the brightest 1-2% although an IQ of 155+ I understand puts you in 1 of only 500 ( I have been told is rarer than this but that's my mathematical understanding of it but then I don't have an iq of 155+! The problem we found was that you can stretch these children with summer schools on line activities etc but unless they are challenged and as importantly understood in school on a day to day basis then it's a complete waste of time.
Twisted you assume that a child working three - four years ahead of its self or even more has been hothoused I met a special group of HE children and parents all with IQs of 155+ some whose children had been voluntarily reading library quantum physics books since they were 2-3 yrs old parents were not quantum physicists these children were far from hot housed. The parents I suspected wished they were normal. All had left state ed usually on the advise of the school because their children's needs were not being met many had links with universies and professors eminent in their fields. Although certainly different all seemed happy as their interests were being catered for none displayed mental health problems associated with high levels of anxiety in fact far from it.

So Bonsoir, your statement that private schools were 'banned' in France was an (incorrect) sweeping generalisation, and the reality is different and more nuanced?

Interesting......

If you want to read my PhD Bonsoir you probably can. I'll PM you the cite and you can order it from the British Library. It won't add much to the debate on the economic costs of comprehensive education since it is on a completely unrelated subject but I can at least cite my sources.

There are nearly 2,000 US universities and 240 French universities. Be a dear and narrow it down for me. Which US and French universities have done these studies? I'm sure I'll be able to find them with some clues but this enigmatic approach is getting a bit erm odd.

I'll PM you

No, it wasn't incorrect. I used "private schools" in the English sense (because this is an English conversation) when "independent schools" would have more precise, but on MN "private school" is the common terminology (I would always say "independent school" in English conversation).

The meaning behind école privée is something quite different to the meaning behind "independent school".

happy, totally accept that more needs to be done to coordinate resources and networks for these very able kids - along the lines of the networks for gifted athletes, footballers etc. I reiterate though, that I do not believe this is the biggest problem facing our education system or society in general at the moment however frustrating it may be for this minority of pupils, parents and teachers. No doubt I'd feel differently if I had kids like this.

Bonsoir: 'When you set something free, it can innovate but just importantly it can show those who are not free what freedom looks like (and how they might steal ideas from it).'

This might seem to make sense but I'm just not sure that the evidence stacks up. Where is the evidence that private schools in Britain benefit state schools? I've seen evidence to the contrary because of the impact of 'creaming off' the brightest. Where is the evidence that private schools are necessarily the most innovative. Again, I've seen evidence and personal experience tells me that private schools often eschew innovation in favour of tradition.

And, again, where does Finland fit in to all this? An entirely comprehensive system that outperforms the UK with all our private education.

Happygardening,

I agree with you about the 'exceptionally gifted' children. I think that there is a genuine difference between 'normally bright' (which is what most people have a picture of when they are describing e.g. the top couple of %, or grammar school pupils, for example) and 'exceptionally bright to the point at which it becomes a special educational need' (which is a very small percentage, a small fraction of 1%). Unless you have met a child in the latter group, then it is perhaps hard to see the rationale behind 'special schools for those exceptionally able children for whom mainstream education is not an appropriate setting'.

I have 'normally bright' children. I know a family with an 'exceptionally gifted' child. The difference is chalk and cheese, and having met a child of that type (who has no 'co-existing' SEN, just the special need of being exceptionally gifted) it is clear to me the problems that they face in mainstream schooling.

Teacherwith2kids - just to try to elucidate further - French école privées were, once upon a time, religious fee-paying schools with much more freedom to teach whatever they chose. But those freedoms were eroded right through the 20th century. At the beginning of the 1980s there was an attempt to bring all schools under complete state control and ban religion in all schools. This was so fiercely contested (massive street demonstrations) that it didn't happen. But nonetheless, écoles privées have continued to have their differences eroded. They are also less well-funded that state schools (which is of course completely different to the situation in England).

teacherwith2kids, that is exactly the conclusion that the researcher who has carried out the Finnish study is coming to.

"Bonsoir: 'When you set something free, it can innovate but just importantly it can show those who are not free what freedom looks like (and how they might steal ideas from it).'

This might seem to make sense but I'm just not sure that the evidence stacks up. Where is the evidence that private schools in Britain benefit state schools?"

Pedagogical practice. Again, I have read hugely on this but please don't ask me to find the "How To Guide" on-line - you really need to think about innovation (in all industries) and to look at the market for textbooks and to talk to teachers to understand it.

FWIW: I went to a school (many years ago) with teachers trained in all the EU countries (9 when I started). The difference in pedagogical practice, quality of text books etc was massive even then. Globalisation has barely begun to scratch the surface - if you look at eg text books and pedagogical practice in the Anglo-Saxon world there is a lot of exchange of ideas, benchmarking etc but the minute you leave the English-speaking world you find that countries are still working with their own cultural models, many of which are very idiosyncratic.

Bonsoir, I know teachers, and have visited schools, across the private and state sectors for primary.

In terms of innovation in pedagogy, state schools are genrally (though not without exception) was in advance of the private schools. The private schools are significantly more traditional in their approach, and innovations in pedagogical and assessment methods filter through to them relatively gradual.

Where the private schools benefit from this is that by the time innovation filters down to them it has been thoroughly tested and refined, and they can pick and choose from the methods available rather than them being dictated (often by politicians with dubious agendas).

Fro observation and discussion with fellow practitioners, though, I would definitely see the flow of innovation as being from state to private (at least at primary level) rather than the other way round.

Urk. Apologies for typos.

'Where the private schools benefit from this is that by the time innovation filters down to them it has been thoroughly tested and refined, and they can pick and choose from the methods available rather than them being dictated (often by politicians with dubious agendas).'

Yes, yes to this!

teacherwith2kids - sadly, a lot of the so-called innovation in the UK state sector has been the widespread adoption of left-wing ideology that then comes to a halt when the private sector shows it up. I am not talking of that particular issue.

x-post with pickledsiblings.

Bonsoir, I can see that if you send your child to an English private school, and are comparing pedagogical practice there to a French state school, you may see the private school as the innovator.

However, comparing multiple English private schools with multiple English state schools, as well as meeting teachers from both types of school, I would suggest that the flow of innovation in pedagogy is definitely state to private.

Bonsoir, could you give me an example of innovation in pedagogical practice from the private sector which the state sector has benefited from taking up? Since I am obviously not thinking about what you are thinking of, could you give me a concrete example to work with?

Bonsoir, the textbooks used exclusively by Independent Schools (in the UK) are the ones designed to help students through Common Entrance - no?

When I think of innovation, textbooks, however magnificent, don't spring to mind.

Bonsoir, I AM a teacher. I am the wife of a deputy head and the daughter of a university professor and a teacher. I have worked for 15 years in the state sector and recently moved into the private sector for various reasons. My educational resources have been widely published and are used by many hundreds of teachers (can't say more for fear of outing). You may not realize it or intend it, but you do come across as deeply patronising in that you make various assertions to people who may well have more experience and expertise than you do without any supporting evidence.

I am thinking specifically of your advice that I should, 'think about innovation', 'talk to teachers' and 'look at the market for textbooks' since I assume you're addressing me with those comments.

Working in the private sector has confirmed what I had suspected. Private schools get great results because they usually select, usually teach small groups, can have high expectations, usually get really supportive parents and highly motivated and aspirational pupils and parents (they've taken the trouble to select the school, pay for it and passed the exams to get into it after all). By and large they do not get great results because of their 'innovation' and, in fact, are often light years away from state schools in terms of 'innovation'. I have also seen no evidence that private schools in any way benefit state schools. Where I work, it is almost certainly the opposite.

In France I meet English teachers who hail mostly from the state sector in England. Only a few hail from the independent sector. My overriding experience of teachers who hail from the state sector is that their ability to understand, appraise, take on board and apply the nuances of different educational practices is very limited because they are unused to constant innovation. Teachers from the independent sector are - how shall I put this - accustomed to looking for, appraising and trying out - and adapting - new practices, almost constantly. There are big issues currently in Paris/Ile de France (and probably in the rest of France) recruiting English teachers for schools as all the better schools (not just the bilingual schools) want native speaker teachers of English and of History/Geography (which is often taught in English). So there are quite a lot of them around.

happygardening, I do of course agree with you that not all children who are able to/ or do work above their national curriculum level are hothoused. Just that 'top' selective private schools, do this as a matter of course and I do not see that this as necessarily beneficial, even if it does mean that the kids are more likely to ace A*s.
It's a seperate debate but actually the kind of children you are describing with sen level of IQ, in my experience have uneven development, and I do not always think that feeding the streaks of exceptional giftedness are helpful for overall development- as sometimes this can actually be at a cost to parts of the personality that can become quite stuck and go unnoticed due to precocious other developments. But as I say that's a seperate debate and of course I don't know the children that you are talking about.