11+

[GracieW]

How much time does your Year 5 DC spend working for this (either tutoring or homework)?

Just want to get an idea of the time commitment...

TIA

[RabbitOfNegativeEuphoria]

Mumtryingherbest Is can only speak for my two DDs, who took the 11+ (in an area quite far from Herts) last year and 6 years ago). In both cases they were working at level 5+ in maths in Y4, they had both covered the entire Y6 maths curriculum before Y6 began which meant a very boring Y6 for them (because their school while happy to let kids work at their level up to the end of the primary school curriculum refused to let them go any further) but was obviously beneficial in terms of 11+. They were far from the only ones like this at their school (or other local schools) - maths is one subject where kids who are good at it at primary level are given their heads and allowed to progress at their own pace, it seems. DD2 is kind of in the middle at maths now she is in Y7 at the grammar, incidentally - all the kids there were working at a high level at primary school.

[voddiekeepsmesane]

MumTryingHerBest when you say that many people sitting the test want either Parmiters or Grammars it is true yes. My original point a few months back is that , yes you can tutor to excess and get a great result on the test but I was never prepared to do that then have DS struggle or us having to continue to tutor him throughout his secondary years.

The personal experience I have of knowing many people with children in schools that I described as pushy and DS being at a school that I determine to be more all rounded as shown with the more relaxed year 6 SAT approach as an example (only my opinion)

The fact that preps prepare the children for the consortium test and state schools can not is very unfair also the fact that the consortium schools allow for outer catchment children when there is a shortage of places for local children, which is reported to only worsen even with new schools being built, is not good and very unbalanced.

As for your last point you mentioned that you couldn't understand how children would be able to pass the maths test if not tutored. You said that your child is year 5 is 4a I would assume that he would be doing a lot of the year 6 maths this year as it covers from level 4b up. This is my experience last year as my DS was at the same level as your DS.

[MumTryingHerBest]

You said that your child is year 5 is 4a I would assume that he would be doing a lot of the year 6 maths this year as it covers from level 4b up. This is my experience last year as my DS was at the same level as your DS. My DS started covering year 6 maths last year (his teacher assessed him in the January and said he was a level 5, in their end of year SATs the school does not assess anyone above level 4a) and started giving him and one other boy work a level up from the rest of the top maths group.

However, this is highly unusual and would certainly not be the case for the vast majority of children sitting the consortium test. Without tutoring (at home with parents or otherwise) the vast majority would not have the full range of knowledge to get the highest marks in the test.

The fact that preps prepare the children for the consortium test and state schools can not is very unfair also the fact that the consortium schools allow for outer catchment children when there is a shortage of places for local children, which is reported to only worsen even with new schools being built, is not good and very unbalanced. This is why local parents are putting more effort into the preparation. It is not to boast that their DC is super bright etc. it is purely to get a place at a local school at a time when the odds of this actually happening are reducing year on year. The 2014 results were a wake up call for many when the pass marks jumped by 10 marks.

[RabbitOfNegativeEuphoria]

It's really not that unusual. Kids who are good at maths have been allowed to progress at their own speed until they hit the primary school ceiling for years, IME. Literacy, that's another matter.

[MumTryingHerBest]

RabbitOfNegativeEuphoria It's really not that unusual. Really, are you saying that in your DCs class 100% of them will have covered the year 6 maths curriculum by the end of year 5? I ask this as 100% of the children in my DS's class will sit the 11 plus and all of them will need to have covered the yr 6 maths curriculum before they sit the 11 plus test at the start of year 6 if they wish to be able to gain a high mark.

Out of interest what do the DC's cover in year 6 if they have already covered all the maths?

[MumTryingHerBest]

RabbitOfNegativeEuphoria a point I should highlight is that SW Herts is not a typical grammar area. Realistically unless a DC is a sibling, cared for, SEN or living within a few hundred metres from the school, they pretty much have to get a specialist place - academic, music, sport, technology.

There are 7 semi-selectives

There is a projected shortage of school places in the area so there is no certainty of getting one of the three local non ranked schools.

In light of this the majority of children in the area will sit the 11 plus.

Two of the consortium schools have an allocation of academic and music places for outer catchment children (going out as far as 10(ish) miles. This reduces the number of school places actually available to local children.

[voddiekeepsmesane]

I don't think it is unusual maybe not 100% but not that unusual. At the beginning of this year the school DS goes to has set them into two different classes those who were 4c and above and those working towards 4b average at the end of year 6. It is a 50/50 mix.

As for what they do in year 6 when they have already covered KS2, I can only answer for our school, they have a great teacher that extends them sometimes working from a beginners KS3 book, sometimes working out a teaching plan for a lesson to help the other class etc etc. I would advise you to be really on top of that and start from the beginning of this year to explain where they take the brighter children. We have always said the last thing we want is a child who is put off school because they are bored.

[MumTryingHerBest]

voddiekeepsmesane sorry voddie, I don't think I'm being very clear in the point I'm making.

100% of the children in my DS class will sit the 11 plus (actually there may be one or two who don't for various reasons). In order for them to be in with the best chance of sitting the 11 plus exam and get a good mark (bearing in mind that many, although granted not all, aspire to Parmiters or WGBS) they will need to cover the yr 6 maths elements that may come up on the exam. Not all the children will cover this content at school, which is where they will need to be tutored by parents or tutors.

I would imagine they will need to have knowledge of some of the yr 6 maths in order to actually do some of the test practice papers.

I was not suggesting that my DS was special, if i felt he was then I too would be considering Parmiters (not keen on single sex either). However, I'm not convinced my DS will be in the top 4% of his corhort.

[voddiekeepsmesane]

And not all the children would have answered/understood all the questions and they will get a low score. Remember even to be considered with any of the consortium schools you must take the test. In fact some of them make you take the test even if you have siblings as they use it to set at the beginning of year seven. Not everyone's reason is the same and not everyone is expecting a great result. The test is available to all so most take it.

[MumTryingHerBest]

voddiekeepsmesane I fully agree with everything you have said. However, the point to note is the jump in cut off marks in 2014. People have commented to me that the jump changed the playing field somewhat.

A mark that would have previously got Queens may get you into Bushey Meads.

A mark that would have previously got you into Rickmansworth may get you into Queens.

A mark that would have previously got you into Parmiters or WBGS may get you into Rickmansworth.

The shock reaction this caused resulted in a lot of playground talk and certainly local parents are much more aware that a degree of preparation may be advisable.

There will inevitably be people who choose not to sit the eleven plus or just give it a go to see what happens.

[voddiekeepsmesane]

Yeah I am well aware of the jump in marks last year and my theory well actually I have a couple. Population growth, more organised because marks are given before choices are made also the tutor boom kicked in. Again though to tutor to pass a test is easy (well relatively) to then be in the wrong school and struggle for years is silly IMO. I know this has happened in the last few years and people have had take their child out and place them elsewhere or homeschool.

[FiveHoursSleep]

The marks for last year increased because of the greater number of children taking the SWHC tests. The test marks are standardised to follow a standard pattern and and a greater number of applicants means more people on each mark. The number of places remain the same, so the successful mark has to go up.
We live in the outer area and I have DDs in both Y7 and Y8 of WGGS. The number of children from private schools seems to be greater in my Y7 DD's class too.

[voddiekeepsmesane]

Not anything against you personally FiveHoursSleep but the outer catchment really needs to go , local schools for local children. Don't know if it will ever happen but the Watford parents are getting riled year on year

[MumTryingHerBest]

voddiekeepsmesane I know this has happened in the last few years and people have had take their child out and place them elsewhere or homeschool. Was there a particular reason they moved their DCs?

From what I understand, there are not many children who leave Parmiters or WGBS (not sure about the other schools). This is according to parents I know who have/had children on the waiting lists.

[voddiekeepsmesane]

The whole thing about private schools has really come I the fore since the recession parents will try for higher achieving grammars if they can rather than pay for another 5/7 years of private education. This has in itself increased numbers applying to the consortium

[MumTryingHerBest]

voddiekeepsmesane Not anything against you personally FiveHoursSleep but the outer catchment really needs to go I think parts of the outer catchment should go and the inner catchment extended to include Rickmansworth and Croxley Green (which currently fall in the outer catchment). There are areas in the inner catchment that are further away from WBGS than some of the outer catchment areas.

[voddiekeepsmesane]

MumTryingHerBest you are correct that not many move their child but instead invest almost the same amount of money akin to private education to tutor their children through Parmiters or WBGS/WGGS not the right approach IMO. There are a few that realise that they have chosen the wrong school for their child and move them or homeschool like I said.

[voddiekeepsmesane]

No Rickmansworth has Rickmansworth school, Croxley has St Clements Danes and a new school being built, Watford is the place that needs new schools for Watford children. Apart from the grammars and Westfields all other school are either Bushey or Garston. Though I suppose it is all about space and where they would place a new school

[MumTryingHerBest]

voddiekeepsmesane I don't think there are many children at those schools that are not up to the academic standard. The results demonstrate that fact e.g.:

www.watfordgrammarschoolforgirls.org.uk/docs/exam_results/results-2013-for-website.pdf

dashboard.ofsted.gov.uk/dash.php?urn=136289

TBH I can't see how an over tutored child is any more likely to struggle than a child who gained a distance place, a music place or a sibling.

Just to be clear, my DC does approx. 2 hours prep. a week. However, if someone chooses to do more, I don't think it can be assumed that their DC is less academically able.

[voddiekeepsmesane]

Because dear MumTryingHerBest the expectation of a child getting in on a sibling place and a child getting in on an academic place is totally different ( trying to keep my cool here) please do not be naïve to think otherwise. The academic results are always skewed it is a well known fact that pupils are encouraged to only go for exams that are a sure thing once at GCSE or A level, not always but often that happens. If you are indeed a member of the eleven plus site then you will know this has been the case at the grammars, Parmiters, QE etc etc

I DO NOT generalise SOME over tutored children will not do well, SOME non tutored children will do well etc etc etc

The main thing I came on here to say a few months ago is what I have said over and over I WILL NOT tutor my DS to death just to pass a bloody test for him to struggle for years to come. Whatever result he gets in two weeks time will be what it is and we will make a decision from that. DO NOT assume that ALL parents of the West Herts Consortium are as competitive as you or your school ground chums

[MumTryingHerBest]

*voddiekeepsmesane No Rickmansworth has Rickmansworth school, Croxley has St Clements Danes and a new school being built

According to this report the shortage of school places is projected for the Rickmansworth, Croxley Green and Watford area. The shortage is not exclusive to Watford (pg 19):

www.hertsdirect.org/docs/pdf/m/risingdemand

To suggest that people living in Watford only have access to the Grammars and Westfield is simply not true. I know people living in Watford who have children at every one of the consortium schools.

Based on the point you have made, are you therefore suggesting that St Clement Danes and Rickmansworth School exclude applicants from the Watford area once those areas are removed from the Catchment for the other consortium schools?

[voddiekeepsmesane]

I am not saying they do not have access to other schools ....you really are on a one tracked mind. I am saying that Watford especially North Watford have NO walkable secondary schools at all. You seem to forget that you are a year behind me in looking at all this and think that I am clueless to some aspects of what is what within the consortium, I can assure you I have and do agonise over this but it is what it is at the moment and we do the best think for our children.

[TheFirstOfHerName]

How is your DD2 getting on?

[MumTryingHerBest]

voddiekeepsmesane it is a well known fact that pupils are encouraged to only go for exams that are a sure thing once at GCSE or A level

I think you will find that every school in the consortium insist on a minimum grade at GCSE in order to continue the subject to A level. I have specifically asked about this during the school open evenings and the levels are consistent across all the consortium schools. I am happy to stand corrected if you can provide me with an example of where this is not the case.

If you are indeed a member of the eleven plus site then you will know this has been the case at the grammars, Parmiters, QE etc etc

TBH I have never seen a single post that makes this claim regarding Parmiters or the Grammars on the elevenplus website.

The following document gives a very specific break down of results and if what you claim is true, I have to question why there are E and U grades included (admittedly very few of them)

//www.watfordgrammarschoolforgirls.org.uk/docs/exam_results/results-2013-for-website.pdf

I have seen a great deal of discussion regarding QEB and the A level cull but given that school is not in the consortium, I'm not sure why this school would be relevant.

[FiveHoursSleep]

I can see your point voddie, but I don't think the outer catchment is going to go anywhere soon. The Grammars are Academies now and they can set their own admission criteria and the outer catchment area is a long held tradition.
The area we live in suffers from a lack of school places too, hence our children travelling to school, but the Dof E has just announced the opening of a new secondary school in 180, which should alleviate things in our area.