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[Slink]

My dd is 2.7yrs and is at preschool. She has been there 5 weeks and doing well.

I want to teach her the ABC she can say it and recognises the letters but i want to reach her to write them and her name and then 123 etc am i going to fast? i have brought these flash cards and a star book but am i being a pushy parent? i wasn't a bright kid at school bullied alot, so want to give DD a head start.

leaf pictures is what my two like doing hope he is still doing well at school jimjams

oops sorry didnt see he hated leaves aswell

This is for school- and they'll get one of these each week- so I don't want to make it too elaborate I thought I'd take some photos on the walk and then stick them on the paper- together with words and symbols underneath, then he'll learn vocab like "muddy puddles".

We have a review meeting at school next Tuesday so I can ask more about this sort os stuff then.

Thank you everyone, wow thats quick responces, i did read them all and yep i am being to eager and she is to young, but feel better in know that she has plenty of time. Your right about her confidence though, i guess if i start too early she'll get bored then it will put her off completely.

Sorry if i don't reply staright away i only get to go on this at 8pmish when DD has finally gone to bed and stopped calling me for that drink or wee or cuddle.

Thank you again ladiesxxxxxx from me.

Good luck with it all Slink. Isnt it amazing how a thread develops and people are having amazing and interesting 'conversations' while you arent looking!

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Just a quick word about children in Germany starting to read later etc.. I've been working with some German primaery school teachers and it turns out that children entering main stream schoolare expected to be reading and writing when they start. They expect that parents/previous childcarers will have taught them alphabet, numbers, pencil skilss and so on. This is causing a problem at the moment as more and more children are entering school without being "up to speed".

The expectations of young children aren't that different, they just put them in what should be a more sympathetic environment.

that is really interesting marialuisa. Do you know if this is something that has changed? Or has it been ever thus, and we've been misinformed?

He can't paint robinw- well he can but its just scribbles. TBH he won't really have any concept of autumn- seasons are far too abstract- which was why I thought a kind of pictoral representation- which we can return to when he does have the language skills for this sort of thing would be good. He can't use sticky tape either - but I do try to expose him to glue on occasion to try and desensitise him.

kmg - I personally think the main problem with the UK system isn't so much that they are trying to introduce early literacy- it's more that they are introducing formal education too early. Some children just aren't ready for all the sitting down etc that school involves at age 4. The foundation curriculum is the same in nurseries and reception- but the atmosphere in a reception class is very different to that of a nursery. It's a shamethat some children are branded as slow at 4 becuase they're just not ready to sit down for long periods.

I am German, and I'm really surprised by what you wrote, marialuisa!When I started school 24 years ago I could write my name, and that was it - I couldn't recognize any letters, nor did I have any numeracy skills to speak of! Still managed to go to university though !
Maybe things have changed since then, but I know that my friends in Germany who have children who will be going to school soon are not doing anything along the lines of teaching the alphabet etc. I found that in Germany the emphasis is very much on letting children PLAY and leaving the three R's to later. This is now being criticised by some, though, as Germany did very badly in the PISA study and some blame the inadequate early years provision for this. On a German forum there was a big debate going on if children should start school at four in the future, so exactly the opposite to what is being discussed here!
Having said that, marialuisa, I don't want to make it sound as if I doubt what you're saying - I think in Germany it makes a big difference in which part of the country you are. For example, Bavaria is renowned for having higher educational standards than most other regions.
Sorry, totally waffling now. Anybody still reading this? Probably not!

Agree agree agree SueW.

Ds1's favourite bit of school is playtime. Every time we leave he says du dye da dum (bye bye playground). The reception classes were taken to the park last week- but I noticed they fixed it so that he wouldn't be there when they went (I don't have a problem with this- very sensible!). Nice to know they do that occasionally though.

The teachers i've been working with are from the old East Germany, but I understood that the educational structures were pretty similar? Have had another chat and they definitely think that children are expected to be prepared when they come to school. Ideally, they say, this means alphabet, 1-10, names, hold a pencil and do all the pre=writing things like join dots, follow patterns, you know the sort of exercises they have in "ready for school" text books. The group is aged between 26-54. I realise that this small group that is over here looking at English early years practice is in no way representative.....

Emkaren, i think the point they have been making to me is that they feel the german system relies too heavily on parents/carers "getting the children ready" for formal schooling. due to changes in lifestyles etc.. this is no longer working so they feel they need to look at ways of "teacghing" what it was assumed kids learnt at home. To my mind this is not so different to comments that the Head of ofsted made recently about British kids not being "ready" for school. their speech and listening skills are not at a level previously expected and so on.

I've found it interesting that no-one has mentioned (prior to Emkaren) about the concerns about falling standards in many European countries.

BTW, has anyone seen the flurry of interest in chinese educational practices that seems to be sweeping more right-leaning broadsheets? Now, that i find scary!!

so what are these chinese educational pracices then?

I had a word with my 4 year old's key worker at nursery today. She's a great combination of enthusiasm and experience. I said to her that I wasn't going to push my son's pre school reading, writing or numeracy skills and I expected her to agree with me - nurseries after all seem to have a 'learning through play' policy.

However she advised me to start building on his knowledge, look at some games and worksheets, introduce him to the idea of phonetics, get him copying letters from the alphabet etc.

Intresting especially in the light of the recent messages here about German education.

Jimjams it's not just the 'formal education' that bothers me about school at 4, but it's the pressure on the children to be so independent and self-reliant for a massive part of their waking hours. DS2's school is fairly regimented - they way they line up, walk around school in single file in silence, etc. - and there are good reasons for it having to be like this. But I'm not sure that is appropriate all day every day at 4 years old.

DS2's teacher was telling me how they get changed for PE: Everyone take your jumper off and put it on the chair in front of you; Now everyone take your shirt off ...; etc. But if you've got 30 little children in your class with only one assistant there is no option but to be so strict. (Actually there is an option - the day the teacher was off all the children came home with each other's clothes on, because the stand-in hadn't done it this way, and all the uniforms got in a hopeless muddle )

Yeah- that's kind of what I meant kmg. it's the lining up and constant waiting that ds1 really can't handle at all. Luckily for him he doesn't really have to, or it gets adapted so he can join in approriatelym but I was quite shocked when I went in as to how formal it was.

The big difference of course is staff ratios, by sending children into school earlier the adult:child ratio is far lower than it would be in a nursery, or home.

Here's a bit about Chinese education , Tigermoth.

Just amazingly regimented and strict. Lots of learning by rote etc. Boarding from age 3, humiliation when mistakes are made. No room for free/independent thought. Interestingly, they want to learn more from the West as China doesn't produce world-famous academics/artists etc (or at least, not ones that stay in China!) but one of the main points of school is to teach the "little emperors" to conform. Also, evenm in communist China education is only partially state-funded.

Thanks for that link Suedonim - fascinating.

Suedonim that article about Chinese Education was really interesting. I'm not convinced that in the UK we should learn from China. Chinese parents in cities pay a huge amount of money for school fees if they want their children to go to a 'good' school. There is also a lot of corruption, with families giving money and giftd to get a child into a school they have not qute passed a test for. We have a lot of family and friends there and all are very stressed out about their children's (well, child's) education, even more so than in London, and peopel are pretty stressed here!
The schools those teachers visited were obviously hand picked, and had good facilities. the ones I know of are much much more basic, and though I agree that in general levels of compliant behaviour are high, they definitlely are mn=missing out on the creative side.
I taught English in colleges in China in the 80s and found the students generally very unimaginative. Very bright, very hardworking, very courteous and keen to learn, but just not able to be spontaneous, try things out, make mistakes and learn from them. Learning by rote was their only experience. That was 15 years ago o9r so, so things may have changed a bit but I wouldnt want my children learning in that sort of environment (although I do like the fact that the children sweep and clean their own classrooms!)

Having taught a lot of south-east Asian post-grads I know they find the whole idea of thinking for themselves very difficult. As for understanding the concept of plagiarism...

Oh yes, plagiarism! My students honestly didnt get the concept. Beacause they had been praised and rewarded throughout their academic careeers for reporting verbatim what they had read, they didnt understand why I was suspicious of any 'perfect' essay with no mistakes and would have much preferred one with honest errors!

How interesting to read about the lack of imagination. Dd, 7yo, was at school with quite a large number of Korean and Chinese children. They excelled academically but when it came to anything involving free thinking, it was quite a struggle for them. They also lagged behind socially, particularly in the company of adults. It reminded me of the old Victorian adage 'Children should be seen but not heard' as they just didn't speak to adults.

I was talking to a chinese parent at my childrens primary school recently: her son has just arrived here and speaks no English. She was asking how he could learn anything at home without a textbook. I was trying to suggestways of listening to tapes, looking at books, comics, even watching TV etc but what they really wanted was a text book he could learn off by heart, rather than understand, I think. It must be sooo difficult for children making such a huge cultural change. A friend of dds has just 'returned' to China with her parents. She actually was a baby when they came here so all her schooling has been in the UK. Shes 8 now. I cant imagine how hard it will be for her going to school in China. Mind you, children just do adapta and cope dont they, and shes very bright.