Choosing schools: what should be the basic expectations from a primary school?

[fairyglo]

We are on the edge of two school catchment areas so are looking around both plus other schools in case we need to move to make certain of a place, any place, in 18 months time. I would be grateful for advice on what to look for when visiting primary schools since I am a good 30 years out of date. I would ideally like my child to go to a state primary (mixed-sex) so at least for the moment my question is aimed at what are the realistic expectations from a reasonable primary state school.

I've looked at two schools so far. One has excellent results and a very high performing, motivated in-take. However, I was a bit surprised that it didn't seem to provide any non-academic services eg have an orchestra, choir, (not clear about class music lessons), no art classes, little sport - no grounds but maybe this is standard? There also seems to be an expectation that children will routinely have extra coaching. This surely shouldn't be necessary if the school is providing nothing but academic teaching?

Maybe this is the reality of education in 2006 but ideally I would not wish my child to spend all day at school then go off to a coaching class while family weekends are spent ferrying between sport or creative stuff. I would like a well-rounded education where academic prowess isn't the be all and end all.

The other school I visited has terrible results and a very mixed catchment. I've been warned that the teachers need to spend so much time on the pupils from the poorest backgrounds that any children from educated backgrounds are left to be taught reading and writing (and everything else) at home. But it seemed friendly, has a specialist music teacher to come in twice a week in reception, art classes, room for a small gym.

I know which of the two I prefer (although trying to keep an open mind since a) we may not get into either if there are loads of siblings and b) still want to see other schools) but the terrible results do worry me.

What do you expect from your primary school? How much outside academic and non-academic "filling-in" is the norm. these days?

Our outer-inner London suburban state school has art timetabled weekly for Y2 and 3 (more often for younger), weekly library, weekly music and from Y3 weekly swimming and recorder. There's also external coaching once a week for each class in sports.

Guitar, violin and various woodwind/brass instruments are offered by visiting music teachers.

After school clubs include French, drama, chess, netball, football, multi-sports, martial arts (Y5&6) and this term they've just started an arts and crafts session.

I think there's a school choir too, but as my boys aren't particularly musical I'm not sure about this.

The school also has a school council, with 2 representatives from each junior class, and an active PTA!

It has goodish academic results, but has quite a mixed catchment. What we really liked when we visited was the atmosphere (lively, friendly) and the children (polite, helpful).

The head is quite long-serving and that leads to a stable community of teachers and parents, too, I think.

singersgirl, can I ask where you are in London?

Frogs, some very good points, thanks. I do find it difficult to put the leaguetable results into context but I must try and hang round the school gates and quiz some mums, look at books when we are shown round schools etc.

My main concern academically is that my child should retain motivation and choice ie by the time we get to secondary level he should be able to compete for a selective school if he wants to. He won't be able to do that if by then he/the school are a couple of years behind in eg maths so I guess I am expecting reasonably high standards of academic teaching as well as all the rest.

At the moment I feel like I'm dating:
Hopeful Mum seeks enlightened school. Willing to travel if need be. We hope to bring a lot with us, what can you offer?

I guess everyone starts the process with quite demanding expectations and then is battered into accepting the least bad. I'm still at the optimistic end of the school process but trying to draw some lines in the sand before I get too desperate to care about anything except a place.

At the risk of sounding cynical again, if you want your child to be in a position to compete for school entrance exams at 11+, he will need a couple of years private tuition, however good the primary school is.

Dd1 has just done hers, and the demands of the private school exams in particular go way beyond anything in the National Curriculum. However bright a child is, they still need to be shown how to do certain things (more advanced maths, extended writing and complex comprehensions in English particularly). State school selective exams are not so clear cut, as they use verbal and non-verbal reasoning which are meant to be more accessible regardless of how good the child's current school is. But in practice, they would be at a disadvantage without some extra help, particularly if the school also tests in English and Maths.

This is less true at 7+, though you would still be wanting to have a long hard look at the entrance requirements, reading between the lines where necessary.

Frogs is that a change? My family all went from a state primary school to selective independent schools, and all we had was a bit of coaching from my dad. My dh (from a completely unacademic family) did the same, and won a scholarship. I'm in fairyglow's position in wishing to have the selective option at 11+, but I certainly hadn't considered coaching as part of that deal. Am I very out of date?

Fairyglo, we're on the eastern/inner side of Richmond LEA - so more outer than inner, I guess, and blessed with very good primary schools.

I disagree with the two years private tuition comment. I looked at the sample test papers for a local independent school while DS1 was in Year 5, and did not think there was much material needed that he hadn't already covered in class. He's recently done some grammar school tests which involved English and Maths papers, and I do not believe he was at an undue disadvantage for only having gone through a few practice papers with me beforehand.

No, probably depends what kind of school you're looking at. I should have been more specific -- these are the requirements for entry/scholarships for the pushy London private schools.

For example, my dd1 had done virtually no extended writing in her primary career, nor any comprehensions that were not multiple choice. The maths was also way beyond what she has covered at school -- multiplying and dividing fractions, for example, and simple algebraic expressions and equations.

The selective grammar schools round here are worse, if anything -- with 1200 applicants for 90 places, it's bound to be that way, I guess.

I'm a London girl as is dh - went for some of the Dulwich schools and a couple of central London ones. I don't remember the exams being particularly hard (maybe I was just naturally swotty!). I would want to try ds/dd for the same sort of thing, but no way would want to subject them to tutoring unless I absolutely had to - having said that ds is only in yr2 and dd in reception, so there is a way to go yet! I am however very interested in this, as I guess I am assuming that they are bright, the secondaries around us are not good, and my parents would probably subsidise us (have done older cousins, although not in London) so it's quite likely as a route.

I would put extra curricular activities and an acknowledgment of the importance of art, music, drama and sport at the top of my list.

There is a headmistress of primary school that I know (we hire her facilities) and she stresses the importance of looking at "the whole child". The children gain so much from taking part in school productions, their sporting teams achievements are acknowledged and I wish that I lived near this school so I didn't have to spend so much money going private.

Dh is an LEA provided peripatetic music teacher and there is a huge different in the schools he goes into between those that value his services and those who don't.

One other thing to pay attention to is the pre and after school care provided, if you wish to perhaps work at some point. Is there an after school club or a reasonable supply of childminders?

I'd be interested in the value people place on after school clubs, putting aside for a moment the help they provide for working mothers. Are these an intrinsic part of the service provided by the school, particularly if they don't do much eg sport during the day or a useful but optional extra? Do you need to belong to at least some of these clubs to be with your friends/get the most out of the school etc or if, for example, the after school football club is not your thing and you get plenty of other sport in normal school hours does it matter if you don't join and either go home to crash or join the Brownies or some other non-school club?

Frogs, I'm in South London and the independent school sample test paper I looked at was the Dulwich College one (which I downloaded as a handy freebie test paper). I'm a bit surprised your daughter hadn't multiplied fractions or done any extended writing at school by the end of Year 5. My DS1 certainly had. He hadn't done much in the way of whole-sentence answer comprehensions, but he had done some similar and relevant work (e.g. book reviews in which you have to justify your view by reference to the book). (As for your 1200 applicants for 90 places story, I suspect that may be for DS1's first choice. Aargh! The maths test sounded challenging, but I think his reading of the Murderous Maths series might have helped him more than tutoring would have done!)

After-school clubs come in two basic types - those that are principally wrap-around childcare with activities built in, and those that are about enabling the children to build on a skill or interest. My children's school has the latter type. DS1 is in the art club, and both he and DS2 are in the chess club. They are a nice extra rather than essential, and doing outside activities instead would not make anyone a social outcast. I think it's good for children to go to some activities outside school to get a wider perspective.

Hallgerda is right about the two types of clubs. By the way, in the terms of their contracts, teachers cannot be expected to run a school club, it is up to them to offer. So if your school does not offer many clubs, it may be that the teachers have made a decision to dedicate their time elsewhere.

Fairyglo, it is worth remembering that the after-school club position may change completely in the next eighteen months because of the Government's wrap-around childcare policies. There may be more of the childcare-type clubs and fewer of the special interest kind.

I do wonder if the high expectations these days on teachers, in terms of planning and reporting and other out-of-class tasks has been at the expense of after-school clubs run voluntarily by enthusiastic teachers. I expect they run out of enthusiasm cos they have to work so blummin hard . And in fairyglo's defence I went to a junior school with an orchestra. even at the age of 7 I think I was quite aware that it sounded awful all a bit Les Dawson iirc.

Fancyhat - hmm yes to your thoughts on teachers - I am on mat leave ATM and am dreading going back in sept and how I will cope with a baby and huge amount of paperwork.

But, most teachers love doing after school clubs and most I know have always offered one as its only about 30-40 minutes after school one day. We offered cooking, craft, sewing, football, cricket, recorders, games, dance, indoor games, computers, choir, gardening and library at one time or another over the last year. So if there are no after school clubs run by teachers you should ask why - possibly down to poor moral and work life balance, think how this may impact on childrens education. Or possibly the school does not expect teachers to run after school clubs in addition to their workload - good moral.

I have my two DD's at the most wonderful infant school, only 5 minutes walk away - an amazing school, with a fantastic headmistress, managing a very mixed catchment area. I'd want to say, don't ever under-estimate the importance of music and other "non-academic" stuff in the school - providing music lessons yourself is no substitute. The confidence and self-esteem, teamwork etc that I've seen developed in the children at this school through productions, assemblies etc is wonderful - and importantly has a major impact on the achievement in the classroom.
Another thing to look for, which I wouldn't have realised before is to ask about / observe the level of parental involvement, as class helpers etc - it shows commitment to the school and emotional involvement in it.

Does anyone else find it amazing/shocking that Pimary schools vary so much in their provision? After all they are all state schools delivering a common National Curriculum. Schools even a mile or two apart can be so different. It is too simple to dismiss this in terms of catchment, some of the most dynamic teachers and schools are in less than prosperous areas.

Fairyglo, don't be fooled! My eldest went to a primary which concentrated so much on the achievers that those with lesser ability or learning difficulties fell by the wayside. In five years, she was never diagnosed as having ADD requiring special attention. Educational assessments put her above average but her results suggest a very low achieving child. Meanwhile, those children who were high achievers were pushed with extra tuition to improve the schools statistics. The result? Everyone wants to go there because it is a high achieving school. The schools which recognise that children may be either above or below the average and adjust their teaching accordingly would get my vote! Results (from SATS) are only there to improve the schools image and not to help an individual to achieve his or her potential. Look beyond the statistics and quiz the head to see what really makes them tick! There is more to life than exam results.

I've been interested to read this thread. I have two boys at Primary Y1&2. All round education is important to me and it is difficult for schools to fit everything around the National Curriculum. I am surprised that nobody has mentioned the impact of the head teacher. Of course every school is different it depends on a variety of factors from funding, parental support but mainly the head and Governor support. Together they are creating the team of quality teachers and directing the schools influence. When I chose the school I wanted my children to go to (and was lucky enough to get in!) it was the gut feeling I had walking round the school with the head and my confidence that she shared my vision of what education should be. Everywhere we went children ran up to her wanting to share their latest achievement (however small) and she individually knew who was due at recorders that lunchtime, chess in the afternoon or what numeracy target they were aiming for. On my first child's first day she not only said goodmorning by name to him but remembered his siblings name as well. Bearing in mind we were new to the area I was impressed and we all immediately felt part of the commuity there. This has only been reinforced as I find a lovely strength of unity from the older children looking after the younger ones which is carried outside the school when I see Year 5 & 6 children stopping to ask my children how they are and genuinely interested in what they are doing. From what I see all children are treated as individuals and whether they have SEN, high achievers or just plain average they all are taken care of. Incidentally my 2nd son is in a class of 36 so its not because of small class sizes.

What I would like to ask about is class sizes. My DS as just started reception in a very mixed state primary school, thirty kids with two teachers,(1 teacher, 1 TA), the teachers just don't appear to be coping, that is: they seldom smile, they never catch your eye, they just count heads as they walk past. My DS crys everyday, which I suppose I was expecting, but surely thirty kids is just too many?