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Phonics

103 replies

welshboris · 01/12/2005 10:08

phonics

OP posts:
puddle · 01/12/2005 21:04

he seems to have been taught in a similar way to the way you do it catflap - very minimal use of the resources except for the sounds and actions - he can tackle any word you throw at him now.

Catflap · 01/12/2005 21:10

QofQ - are you arguing over 1%??

And no, I agree - no point in pushing at all; I don't think SP is about that. It is about ensuring all children DO learn to read independently and with success. As I've said before, they are just statistics used to illustrate progress and achievement - it would be great to have many children in schools currently reading at all without having the added pressure of having to push them...

puff · 01/12/2005 21:10

I'm not as passionate about this as catflap (probably because I've decided not to bother going back into teaching), however I do agree with her based on my experience of teaching children to read.

Catflap · 01/12/2005 21:11

thanks puddle - great to hear

Catflap · 01/12/2005 21:13

thanks puff - interesting slant from you; my passion has certainly taken a back seat since becoming a mum; im just hoping SP will be common practice by the time I do inevitably end up back in the classroom....

Thanks for your support!

DoesntChristmasDragOn · 01/12/2005 21:43

So how does "laugh" work? gh = ff, Ok but au = AR? It also is or (caught) There's always good old tear (cry) and tear (rip). (and, as an aside, how about "orange"? Does anyone say or-range rather than or-ringe?)

The problem with English is that the same letter grouping can have completely different pronunciations which is where phonics falls down slighty. And different letter groups make the same sound - add tier in with tear and tear

Some things just have to be learnt, IMO, depending on what context the word appears. Having said that, there's no doubt in my mind that phonics is the right basis for reading but there will always be an element of "look and remember" IYSWIM.

Glitterygook · 01/12/2005 22:25

Soupy, with tear or tear they can sound out the word and then tell which one according to the context in which it is said.

THe word QoQ used as an example 'was' - ds1 has sounded this out as 'w' 'a' 's' and then you can see his brain tick for a second and he says it properly as 'was'.

Oh, and laugh doesn't have 'ar' in the middle. Not oop north anyway Much easier to sound out 'grass' and 'bath' using phonics oop north! The song in JP is 'a, a, ants on my arm' but then if you live darn sarf you've got to turn that 'a' into an 'ar' for bath! Hmm,confusing!

Glitterygook · 01/12/2005 22:26

Sorry, should have read your whole post properly - you did talk about context. Sorry

Twiglett · 01/12/2005 22:26

I got told off by a 5.5 year old the other day for referring to plants (short a)

'They're not plants' says he 'they're plarnts'

Glitterygook · 01/12/2005 22:28

Ha ha!

My friend, although from Yorkshire and says 'grass', bath (short a) also says 'headmarster' and even wierder 'plarsterer'!

ChocolateGirl · 01/12/2005 22:28

Personally, I would like my son to have a reading age ahead of his chronological age.

I was once told by a teacher that I should be aiming for him to have a reading age one year ahead of his chronological age. The reason (and I don't know how accurate this is): because you can read "The Sun" and do GCSEs with a reading age of 8.5 years. This is considered "functionally literate". I want my son to have a reading age well above this so that he can appreciate Shakespeare and other literature (if he so desires), for one thing...

I'm not saying that all our children stop at a reading age of 8.5 years, or that it is terribly important now at chronological age 5 that he has a reading age of 6, I'm just saying that I want the best for him. I also want him to enjoy learning to read and reading. There is research that proves that the kids who enjoy reading are the ones who can read the best. So I do want him to get off to a good start. And I'm also told that the best predictor for performance at GCSE level is reading age at chronological age 7. Scary!

I am a huge fan of Jolly Phonics and have posted on this subject before. I was really glad to see on the news tonight that more synthetic phonics work is to be done in schools - IMO it's what we need.

Glitterygook · 01/12/2005 22:33

A serious question for catflap and other experts then - tonight ds1 was practicing his reading with one of the Ruth Miskin 'BOB' books. He was doing really well but he does get distracted by the pictures and starts talking about what's happening in them and then saying that the author should have said x, y, z as that's what is happening. I am seriously patience deficient so I have to admit this really annoys me as the purpose as I see it is for him to read the words!

BUT, I've got a feeling people would tell me I was wrong and that I should let him enjoy the whole experience so that he loves books rather than just forcing him to read each word even if he doesn't feel like it. Is that right - should I let him get distracted by the pictures and start chatting about them?

At parents evening I was told he was doing absolutely fine and that he was blending sounds to read words really well. However, quite a few in his class are bringing home reading books and have done for a good while. I can't understand why he hasn't got one as he is managing to read absolutely loads of words in our books at home, on cereal packets, on road signs - he's really enthusiastic about it and I wish she'd send home some books so I can capture it!!

Don't want to be pushy parent but I don't want him lagging behind (no indication that he is btw, just my fear!)- he's a very bright boy and I'm worried that those already reading quite well for whatever reason are getting more focus.

Catflap · 01/12/2005 23:23

there's no doubt in my mind that phonics is the right basis for reading but there will always be an element of "look and remember" IYSWIM.

I think this is essential - and common sense.

I believe SP is the most effective route to teaching because it doesn't combine other teaching strategies e.g. flashcards of words to be learnt as a whole shape and also guessing words form very limited phonics and predomaninantly using pictures and context.

HOWEVER, of course I use flashcards for blending and recognition practice, as of course sight recognition is important as you can't go sounding out every word every time you see it. But there is a difference between sight recognition understanding the component parts and sight recognition from purely a whole word shape with phonics in the word you don't know.

And of course using context to work out words with letters that are used for a variety of different sounds is also an important skill - but it is a valued part of SP, as I see it, because it does use knowledge of sounds first. I mean, a child using context to work out the difference between the tears and the different 'read's is a clever skills using phonic knowledge and is miles from guessing 'tear' from a totally different word because it kind of fit sin the sentence.

Glitterygook's serious question:

There are some thoughts in the SP world - and I do see the point of this in many cases - is that reading is practiced in a directed, formal way without pictures. I find children are just as motivated to tackle some text and dead proud when they have found out what it says all byt themselves. However, I only use this with word and sentence cards and perhaps short rhymes/verses and even them I might just decorate then with one little picture illustrative of the whole, because, well, I like my resources to look pretty!

However, it is important to maintain a love of books and pictures are often so captivating, so it is important to reach a balance.

So, I would say - enjoy the pictures. Explore them and talk about them. But do NOT use them as an aid to reading, because they should't be and either ensure concentration on the words before or after exploring the pictures. They should be explored, but not as a distraction.

When doing group reading, there would inevitably be some comments on the pictures as the children turned the page as that is what catches their eye first, so I would let those go and then say - right, let's find out what is really happening - and then we would revisit the pictures again when we had read.

Ask at school about the books - but remember, reading is NOT just class reading books. Sounds like you are capturing his reading ability already! SO enjoy it!

HTH cfx

julienetmum · 02/12/2005 00:10

I'm goinf to do a QOQ here

"Enid said of her dd's school: "they use some phonics work in conjunction with ORT....She is not a good example as she struggles with reading"

  • This is a PERFECT example - have you ever thought your dd might be struggling BECAUSE she is learning phonics mixed with ORT? The two are incompatible - children can hardly ever practice what phonics they have learnt because ORT is a whole word based reading scheme - that is its purpose and how it was created. So, children learn how to build words up and sound them out and then have to resort to other strategies to read the ORT books because those words are far too complicated to read with their current phonic knowledge. "

I don't know if you saw my post a few days ago Catflap on this subject but I am worried about this. I am doing SP with 4 year old dd but I am having to counteract the nursery 26 sounds with ch and sh thrown in. When she starts reception next Sept they use ORT. Any advice on this other than to demand they change their scheme?

It is a private school so they won't have to adhere to any edicts of Ms Kelly and is fab in every other way.

Hallgerda · 02/12/2005 07:58

Having done "buddy reading" with a Year 5 child who had bad gaps in his phonics understanding, particularly over diphthongs, and successfully prompted the school to do something about it, I can see that schools need to do more phonics. I am rather worried, however, by the tone of the argument. It seems that anyone disagreeing with Catflap is dismissed for having children who read easily (so do not see the real need for phonics) or for having children who are struggling (so can't be teaching them to read in the right way). I fall into the former category, having taught mine to read between the ages of three and four using a combination of a Ladybird look-and-say reading scheme and what I at the time believed to be common sense, that is looking carefully at the sounds occuring in each word and building up the word by making the sounds and putting them together. For the common words for which either the rule was disproportionally complicated at that stage or there wasn't one, I allowed my children to sound it out and then said "Yes, well actually it's xxxx. You just have to learn that one." I felt that early and rapid recognition of the most frequently used words was of some benefit, not least in remembering what the start of the sentence was about by the time of reaching the end. I don't like ORT much either, from what little I have seen of it. In the early books there is neither a clear phonics strategy nor sufficient repetition for look-and-say. And I'm certainly not in favour of looking for picture clues to read a word in the early stages. But I do have a problem with the exclusive use of a single technique which takes a "walled garden" approach. For one thing, I believe other techniques are also valid, may help some children, and would have to be introduced at a later stage in any case. For another, use of a single technique could damage parents' confidence in their abilities to teach their own children without recourse to expensive resources. Catflap's Stalinist line also makes me wonder whether we will see a return to the days when schools actively discouraged parents from teaching their own children, or tried to stipulate how we should do so.

homemama · 02/12/2005 09:59

Oh dear, I promised DH I'd switch off the computer last night so I missed my name being taken in vain.

Right, yes Catflap, I have taught in a school that took a pure SP approach to the teaching of reading in the infants. This was only one school as others I have taught in used a range of methods although in every case, SP was very much at the core of teaching.

I said previously it is the best method but it isn't magic. By this I meant that in a standard setting that used mixed methods then you would expect 25 children to come up to the juniors able to read. In the school which taught SP exclusively, you would see 28 or 29 children coming up able to read. However, every year there would still be one or two children for whom it hadn't worked.

When I would differentiate the junior 'methods' down to their level, eg picture clues and frequent exposure to high frequency words this had some effect. IMO, these children were clearly very visual learners and would have struggled with reading regardless of the method used. However, for them, rapid exposure to whole words and repeatedly practising what it said was the only way forward. The more words they built up, the more they were able to tackle a tricky word by reading around it.

My worry is that this will be hailed as a 'wonder drug' that will end all literacy problems. I think the reality is that yes, it is a wonderfuk teaching tool but that there will always be some children who need something more and these children are not always children with special needs.

titchy · 02/12/2005 11:54

Whilst I agree that phonics is a good basis I really think most kids need some 'look and see' as well, particularly for the wierd words - of which I dispute the assertion that there are few - there are loads!!!!! How do you teach a child to deal with cough, bough, though, through, trough etc. Also the rule when an 'a' follows a 'w' the 'a' is always said 'o' - err no - what about w*nker , wafer. It seems to me that teaching purely SP means children have an AWFUL lot of rules to learn, can be problematic for dyslexic children and although children obviously need to be able to understand context this method relies on them understanding the context of a story perhaps before they are able, so the reading won;t be able to progress until the child is old enough to understand the context IYSWIM.

My other point is that of course no teacher would teach 30 different ways to 30 different kids. But in reality they should be able to teach 2 or 3 different ways at least one of which will suit each child.

Catflap · 02/12/2005 12:59

julietnetmum - no, I didn't see your post, sorry. I have only just popped back on here in the light of the patest news and wondered if people were chatting about it!

Not much advice, really... if you visit the syntheticphonics.com message board or the Reading Reform Foundation messageboard I know there have been similar discussions.

To be honest, you have probably got to roll with it, or refuse to read the ORT books, or go in for a chat to discuss it and see what they have to say.

Hallgerda's comment "But I do have a problem with the exclusive use of a single technique which takes a "walled garden" approach. For one thing, I believe other techniques are also valid, may help some children, and would have to be introduced at a later stage in any case. For another, use of a single technique could damage parents' confidence in their abilities to teach their own children without recourse to expensive resources. Catflap's Stalinist line also makes me wonder whether we will see a return to the days when schools actively discouraged parents from teaching their own children, or tried to stipulate how we should do so."

  • so many people have a 'problem' with a single approach, but why?? There is not this discussion with any other subject area! There are many ways to aproach a subject within the same knowledge base, but everyone is just allowed to get on with that. There is pretty much only one way to teach children to read music, to read maps, to colour mix etc etc - they need to know what the musical symbols stand for, they need to know the map codes and they need to know what colours mixed with ther colours make different colours.

Well, there is only one way to teach children to read - to interpret and blend the letetr sequences. You can do this a few ways, but it is that which enables them to read. If this is not taught, then children who read anyway are figuring the phonics out for themselves but in a haphazard and by chance kind of way. Or they are not figuring it out at all.

Other techniques are not valid - it has been proved. Children do still learn to read, but it is usualy despite these methods, but because some children are able enough to do it anyway, we think these methods are valid. They are not. I have read the evidence but also seen it in my own classrooms when I analysed my own practice years ago.

About damaging parents' confidence - I actually find in reading of boards like this and chatting to parents that they generally know more than the teachers do. One parent on another board I used commented on a similar thread "I don't know if I am being really stupid, but what OTHER way is there to learn to read other than by learning how letters and groups of letters sound? Its how I learned to read a million or so years ago, its how I'm teaching my little boy. I was suprised to see that its being heralded as a new way!"

However, parents who do struggle are also a product of inefective teaching, as in, they don't have all this knowledge either, unless they have worked it out themselves. However, hopefully, the next generation of parents will be a lot more knowledgeable.

My Stalinist line?? I always wonder why people are so against my views. I only want all chidlren to be able to learn to read because I am so saddened by being in a profession where children suffer terrible low self-esteem because they fail at something it is our responsibility to teach. What is wrong with that? Does that make me a bad person and a terrible teacher??

And I don't think it is moving toward the things stated at all - who on earth could tell parents what to do at home, especially when, as I have said, most are doing a better job than the teachers anyway...

homemama - this is very exciting; I would love to hear all about the methods your school used - what scheme/resources did they follow and use? Was it really taught exclusively without any other decoding strategies?

yes I don't doubt that for a couple of children it didn't work - but could they really read nothing ??

I think that it is a magic cure in that it is going to help a load more children read than would succeed under current methods, and that has to be a good thing, surely. I don't think we'll ever get to the stage when we can sit back and sigh happily that every child has been educated to perfection. But, if the NLS currently has about 75% success rate in teaching reading and SP has 99%, I know which one warrants the support.

titchy - "How do you teach a child to deal with cough, bough, though, through, trough etc." well, pretty much as you have laid out here - words do fit into groups where there are other words with the same sound/spelling pattern, so they are taught together. Word lists of the same sound/spelling pattern are displayed for reference. Children learn which words fit into which patterns.

yes it is complicated, but so is our language. Teaching SP simplifies it as much as possible by providing a consistent method with little guessing or randomness. There might be lots of rules, but without them, there are even more things to remember. Remembering words by their whole shape multiplies the things to be remembered by hundreds. Guessing enables little to be remembered, especially of your guesses are wrong.

The thing is, our language just does represent our spoken sounds with letters. This is how it is constructed. It was created that way, hundrends of years ago. It happens in every word. Sure some are a bit more tricky than others, but why teach anything else than how to interpret those sounds and letters?

You drive a car by understanding what the pedals, gears and steering wheel do and how to do it all at appropriate times. Why teach anything else when that is how it works? The same can be said of playing a musical instrument, or reading a map, or all the other subject areas. I am always mystified why people think that reading can somhow be done differently.

And errmmm yes, the 'a' for 'o' thing does still stand in most words. Yes, there are always exceptions - you are being a bit pedantic. And I'm sure you'd be pleased to know I didn't teach my kids the word w*nker.

Caligyulea · 02/12/2005 13:35

Frankly I'd be delighted if schools told me not to interfere or try and teach my kids at home. It would be a wonderful luxury to be able to hand the job over to what should be the experts.

Catflap · 02/12/2005 13:50

well said; that is the point, I suppose!

Lasvegas · 02/12/2005 14:35

Catflap I would like to teach my DD to read between 3 - 4, prior to starting school. Can you reccomend any books, DVD's etc that parents can use at home?

When I was a pre-school my mother taught me using Janet & John it worked V well. Is J & J phonics?

Issymum · 02/12/2005 14:47

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at OP's request

Catflap · 02/12/2005 14:48

ooh no... J+J ick!

The phonics approach that I will obviously recommend (J+J obv worked for you, but I would't gamble that it would work for your kids) would be the Jolly PHonics resources - get the Handbook (all you need to get started and it has photocopiable resources in it) (a cheap one on ebay, perhaps??) and then some of the Jolly Readers. Then, there are heaps more reseources great for home learning that you could get if you had the fancy and the money!

Good luck, have fun!

Catflap · 02/12/2005 14:53

issymum - yes, I agree, I see it a lot, particularly from our antipodean friends who are very strongly trained in mixed methods, or so I understand from the few I have worked with and talked to.

The thing is, children do learn to read by mixed methods, which is why it can't be totally discredited. Those that don't are just thought to be that poor little special needs group that will always struggle with stuff, bless them.

And the greatest critics are often those with no direct experience and knowledge of SP and don't really understand how and why it works and haven't seen children succeed through it.

Most teachers ARE able and dedicated but we can all only be as good as the reading and analysis we have done and the experience we have had.

Issymum · 02/12/2005 15:02

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This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at OP's request