top set and struggling or bottom set and confident?

[Yorkiegirl]

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I don't have any experience of top juniors. But I don't approve of complete mixed ability in secondary school.

In all our yr7 English classes we have a range of abilities from level 3 (and below) to above level 5. In that context I think it is not possible to really challenge the top 5% and bottom 5%.

We set in science from half way through year 7. With classes of arounf 28 it would be impossible to cope with the needs of totaly mixed ability classes.

key is giving kids stuff which is just a bit harder than the stuff they already know, that is impossible when you have levels 3-5-6 in a class

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Martianbishop: Do you end up with serious behaviour problems with the next-to-bottom set?

at the last school i worked in they were known as the fast and standard set. parents still know whether their child is in the upper or lower ability group. we always made sure that the children who were less confident and average were in the standard set as a boost, with the knowledge that they could be moved to the fast set when they were more confident. Equally some children responded very well to being in the fast set, even at the bottom, because they were with the brighter kids and had had their ability recognised, also gave them something to strive for. As long as we could give a plausible explanation at parents evening we were ok.

I'm also a science teacher, and we set from year 9 on. I can't imagine teaching a completely unset GCSE class, but it's important to remember that all classes are "mixed ability", whether in sets or not. IMO it's sometimes easy to become a bit complacent about differentiation when you are teaching sets, thinking that the setting has done that for you, and getting back to the original question, this is probably why some struggle in the top set, or coast in a lower set.

Find it odd that kids so young know which set they are in. I know which sets DS (P4) is in, because there is an extremely clever little boy in his class so it's easy to work out! Haven't a clue in DD's case (P2), and it's not an issue, either for her or DH and me. I know what Level she's on and working towards, but that's it, and would hate to think she was comparing herself to others. She does go to a very large Primary School, so maybe that helps.

DS1 was always blissfully unaware, and still is to a certain extent.

But even in reception ds2 knew he was on top table, and knew where everyone else fitted in the class, what stage of the reading scheme they were all on, etc.

I think partly this interest (or lack of it) is down to personalities.

Personalities, school's approach...who knows?

I'd consider asking for my kid to be in the top set in that situation, yg, especially if they were near the top of the bottom set, iyswim. I've been totally taken aback by all this setting at primary level and must say that on the whole I think it's a bad thing because some kids, including both of mine, seem to know and care desperately about which group they are in. Fine if they are in top groups but heart breaking for those who aren't and care. If either of mine were later on to be moved to lower groups and be upset about that I would be having words with their teacher as to what confidence boosting measures could be employed. I can't change the fact that schools choose to set but I will do my damndest to ensure my kids are as happy as they can be within that system. Now they can read I couldn't really care less about their actual achievement as I reckon they now have the tools to teach themselves whatever they want to learn in the longer term but I care deeply that they grow up thinking they are capable and creative and talented in their own ways. Self belief is immensely important imo and I would certainly go into school to try to address anything that threatened to crush their sense of "can-do"ness. I honestly think, sadly, that they would be upset to be in a bottom group so, yes, would be talking to you about that and seeing if there was anything you could suggest.

I did g.c.s.es myself and i would say:

• Setting pupils perse doesnt always work cos they do it on behaviour as well as ability, so if your bored and mess around they think you're stupid not bright and fed up with parrot fashion learning of cause and effect science or Ms Calum's interpretation of Romeo and Juliet.
• So academically sets are not always great but they do teach you to be quite street wise and how to get on with people, which at the end of the day is more important than the difference between an A grade and a C grade in English or Maths.
• After all so much depends on, who you know, luck, if you choose the right vocation for yourself, who interviews you, what the market is doing in your sector.
• I got really good grades at gcse and a-level and at university and then there were some of my friends who didn't and none of them are out of work and some of them are more successful (i.e. earn more money) than me; and we have happy memories of being really naughty in Mrs Southways chemistry class (sorry Miss!!

Scummymummy, interesting that you raise the 'top of the bottom set' case, I have seen it go both ways. I once taught a lad who was at the top of the 'bottom set' who was 8so* upset when 'promeoted' as he was having his confidnce built up by being the bright spark in the class.

Can you have behavioural probelms in the next to bottom set? You can have them in every set, give the wrong mix of personalaties. The behaviour tends to get worse as you go down the set lists. In someways second to bottom may have more 'naughty' kids.....thise who cant be bothered to work, while the very last set has more children with specific learning needs IYSWIM.

Thinking about this, we have had great sucess moving persistant troublemakers to 'top set', so it doesn't seem to have adversly affected them. We have a boy in second set atm because of his persistant bad behavior, and there is no-one there to play up with. His predicted grades have gone up fron E/D to Bs.....amazing what a good placement will do. thr trouble is you can only place one child like this is a class. Place two and you risk the education of all the others.

Agree with what you said about differentiation still being needed in setted classes, Becky, but I couldn't begin to cope with unsetted GSCE either GG to AA in a class would be impossible

my 6 year old son spent an unhappy year, last year, sat next to a boy with special educational needs and his learning assistant. All the other children were in groups on tables. The two boys (and occasionally another boy who joined them) got on reasonably well - no big personanhblity clashes, it wasn't that.

However, I get the impression that the proximity of this helpful adult, plus seeing the slow progress this boy was making, really demotivated my son and stopped him trying to work independently. He wasn't that motivated to begin with and he had no confidence in his ablity to pick up the work. He asked to be moved away to another table but the teacher said no. Also, minor gripe, but the table lists (ie who was in each abilty group) was displayed by a window clearly visible to all parents and children as they went into the school gates, so everyone could see who was in the top set and who wasn't.

Since his year 2 teacher has moved him to a group table without a helpful adult sitting there constantly, ds2's work has improved by leaps and bounds and he is 100% more confident. The teacher expects much more of him and he is rising to the challenge. Being in the bottom group did him no good at all.

Just come back from parents evening and this thread seems very relevant! DS1 (Year 7) is in higher-ability set in maths but is seen as 'cause for concern' and may be moved down a set at Xmas depending how things go over the new few weeks. He's holding his own - just - but towards the bottom end. I think he might lose confidence if he is moved down but as his teacher said better now than later when any damage to his self-esteem might be worse. If anyone has a ds or dd who's dropped down a set have they experienced any teasing/negative comments from other kids?