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Biff and Chip !

84 replies

Whizzz · 08/10/2005 18:32

What sort of names are those ?
What's wrong with Janet and John ??

How are those books supposed to work then?

DS has his first book from school about pancakes. I would have thought they would have started with basic sounds not words like frying pan ?? [puzzled emoticon]

OP posts:
singersgirl · 09/10/2005 16:31

To echo Catflap, why is using picture clues as important as using phonic clues? There isn't a single picture clue in this message to help you make sense of it, but if you know your phonics, you're OK. I think pictures are important to help young readers enjoy books, but I don't think encouraging picture clues to guess at words leads to the right kind of 'reading reflex' (as others have called it). That's why a poor reader in a Y3 class guessed the word "dragonfly" when he saw the word "dinosaur" - because there was a picture of a dragonfly on the page.

roisin · 09/10/2005 17:10

Catflap - in all subjects children learn things differently. Gardner et al different intelligences etc. That's why good teachers try include different teaching styles/learning activities in every lesson, or at least vary them over a range of lessons.

projectmanagerCOd · 09/10/2005 17:11

also the names wont date or be class specicif will they?

roisin · 09/10/2005 17:12

For me the primary rationale for encouraging children to look at the pictures for clues, is to help them experience success, and enjoy books. Reading is very difficult to start off with, and it's easy for children to be put off before they've even started.

I love the ORT books - they are real stories, and IME are much more satisfying for many children than phonic readers, which are usually very false, and often pretty mindless in the text.

mixed · 09/10/2005 19:22

It's funny. Both my sisters are (like me...) from a Northeuropean country. Obviously English is much easier for us to understand and speak. Nevertheless, both have commented on the fact that they often find it difficult to pronounce written English words, more difficult than French words. I also have difficulties sometimes with even very easy words like bear and smear.

Catflap · 09/10/2005 20:11

roisin - that's too general; I know that sentiment. But I mean, how is it really applied specifically to each subject? Because if you think about it properly, it isn't. There is no other subject that believes the integral route to achieving the overall aim should be so fundamentally different than reading, and I want to know why people think that, in their own words. And there is no real proof that all this learning intelligences and learning styles stuff is anything productive - it's just the latest fad.

Catflap · 09/10/2005 20:22

ah roisin - sorry, leapt in there to respond to your first post and just read the next one.

So, the "primary rationale for encouraging children to look at the pictures for clues, is to help them experience success, and enjoy books."

To help them experience success. Why not succeed by actually reading the words? Children can experience success like that and actually be reading, properly.

What about when they don't experience succes because their guesswork from the pictures is so random they can hear it doesn't really make sense and they know they are not really reading.

Similarly, enjoying books doesn't necessarily happen because they know they are not really reading, or their attempts are not successful. I have seen many children turned off books because they can't access them properly and they will not accept trying to read by other shortcut methods that they know are not doing the job.

Using the pictures to 'tell' the story and enjoing books are all pre-requisites to beginning reading, but surely when a child is ready to actually read properly, that's what we should be doing - actually teaching them to read. The words.

At the moment, by dd is enjoying playing the piano. She in only 15 months, so she bashes away, as well as exploring some individual notes across the keyboard. This is great - she understands how to get sounds; she can explore how to get different sounds and how to make various sounds more carefully. She is clearly no Mozart, but Im sure eventually she will learn how to get basic tunes. She could probably carry on this way indefinitely and get some degree of enjoyment, but if she wants to really make the most of it and be able to play different things fully, one day, she is actually going to have to be taught - all the actual mechanics that she won't discover by playing about or enjoying herself. And probably, if she has that desire and is never taught properly, her interest will probbaly wane.

And finally, so ORT are "more satisfying for many children than phonic readers, which are usually very false, and often pretty mindless in the text."

Some are maybe more contrived at the beginning as they are limited to the sounds and letters they have learnt so far - however, continuing the above analogy - when a child starts to learn the piano, there are going to be a few pieces they play with very limited notes - sometimes just C, then C and D, then B etc etc - no child is going to learn by getting stuck into a full blown CHopin piece, however pretty it may be and however 'properly' is might have to be played.

However, this is a very quick process and soon, children are reading real books, or playing real pieces, just for taking that little bit of time at the start to learn the basic mechanics properly.

Whizzz · 09/10/2005 20:46

Hmm quite a complex issue then !
He has learnt the names of them all from his word cards but again I think its more that he knows K is for Kipper etc. Still he does seem to enjoy it which is the main thing!
Thanks for the OCT link - he didn't bring an extended story sheet home - maybe thats next time

OP posts:
LIZS · 09/10/2005 21:01

Catflap, is it so bad that he recognises the K for Kipper? Presumably as long as he realises that it isn't exclusive so K is also for kitten, kettle, kitchen etc he should learn to isolate the sound.

We think that they have done the extended story in class, probably with a Big Book read to a group as dd seemed to know some of the info contained in it already. dd enjoyed it and it didn't take long to run through it a few times over the weekend and also practice her JP sounds. She is so proud of her book !!

Catflap · 09/10/2005 21:08

No, of course it's great that 'K' for 'Kipper' is recognised - as an early reading skill. The danger is when

i) it is only initial letters that are taught and focussed on

ii) that words are encountered that can be sounded out all the way through so reading is successful and independent

Whizzz - the Debate is quite a complex issue; for those that teach synthetic phonics, teaching reading isn't complex at all. All very straightforward.

projectmanagerCOd · 09/10/2005 21:09

catflap why aer you SO anal abotu reading?

Catflap · 09/10/2005 21:10

interesting question - I can see you are not anal in the slightest about typing.

ignorant question, actually - doesn't even deserve a response, if you have read my posts.

Whizzz · 09/10/2005 21:13

Oh dear I seem to inadvertantly started a controversial thread ! Ooops

I only really meant that names like Biff & Chip are silly names for kids to be called!

< I can just see the posts now - 'my son is called Biff.......' >

OP posts:
Catflap · 09/10/2005 21:20

You didn't - I think it was my interuption and if I made your thread something you didn't want, I apologise.

By the way, though, I agree. Very stupid names. However, I had heard they were nicknames, and have to agree, they are very decodable at an early stage......!

Pastarito · 09/10/2005 21:28

Do you mind if I gatecrash this thread - has posted a query (still about reading/writing) for catflap on another thread which might be inactive now:

I've come on to this thread too late probably!

If you are still there, Catflap - I've read through some of your threads (or threads you have contributed to) and it all makes perfect sense to me! I have a couple of questions you might be able to answer (if you have time, sorry, you must be so busy answering all these mumsnet queries - maybe you should set up your own web service. You could earn a fortune).

I have two sons, one aged 6.7 and one 3.1.

Ds2 concerns me a bit because his speech is slightly behind, so I had him seen by a speech therapist and he apparently has a 'mild delay' in expressive language (although 'understanding' is within normal limits for his age), which they think should right itself during this (nursery) year. His hearing needs to be double checked as he wouldn't do all the tests first time round.

My question is this: should I start Ds2 off on letter sounds? I had started doing letterland with him but I read your comments on Letterland and now feel that maybe I should stop that. I remember when ds1 was in reception, his class teacher asked me to get him out of Letterland as soon as I could. If Letterland is no good, should I start on Jolly Phonics or is ds2 too young and should his speech be further on before I try? We do read a lot to him and he likes books, which might be enough at this stage?

My other worry is that the school my children attend (ds1 in yr2 now) are very strict on cursive writing. Ds1 is only just getting the hang of it properly and it has held him back, even though his verbal knowledge is great. The school seems unaware of what he is capable of because he doesn't 'record' his work to the level that they expect. I find this difficult to accept and feel that they have demoralised him and that we are working to catch up all the time.

Any suggestions about any of this gratefully received!

oh- my son's school does ORT with Jolly Phonics thrown in during Yr 1 (not sure why not in reception)...

Lara2 · 10/10/2005 18:28

Catflap - why do you think that only initial sounds are taught? When children know - and I mean really know and use their initial sounds ( sound /letter correspondence AND letter/sound correspondence) then they are ready to start with blends. And , yes, we do teach children that! If pictures aren't important, why are they in the books? Do you actually think that any child would learn to read without pictures? They wouldn't pick up the book in the first place - the pictures enrich the story - and they do help with making a guess based on phonic knowledge when learning to read. If a child is guessing the wrong word beginning with 'd' because he's using the pictures, then he will have been encouraged to look at the word and the picture again - as well as the context of what he's reading. at least he's reading, and ready and willing to have a go, possibly make a mistake and learn from it.

And yes, I DO teach children to read individually, how else do you think they learn? In guided reading you have a very small group and can use a variety of strategies and give each child time and individual attention.

Yes,you have opened a can of worms - if you have concerns about the way your own children are taught, you need to take it up with their teachers. You have - I assume _ never taught a class of children to read, having to take into account all their abilities and all the different strategies available, but feel it is OK for you to make broad assumptions about the validity of picture clues versus phonic clues. It's daft!! WHY is it a problem????

roisin · 10/10/2005 18:55

Lara - I believe Catflap does actually have teaching experience, though how many years and what ages I don't know.

soapbox · 10/10/2005 19:46

Lara - I think it would be wise to read some of Catflaps earlier posts on different threads before leaping in!

I think you will find that your assumptions are wrong!!!!

aloha · 10/10/2005 20:06

But why? That's not reading, that's guessing! Thank god my ds is reading now, and not relying on idiotic-sounding reading schemes.

Catflap · 10/10/2005 20:07

Lara2 - I think that initial sounds are sometimes only taught; because sometimes they /are/ !! I didn't mean that was happening exclusively everywhere, just that sometimes this is the main focus and this is often what areas of the NLS promote. It is also common practice for general basic phonic work: a is for apple, b is for ball etc

Why do you think that children need to be familiar with initial sounds before they can blend? Why can the two not happen simultaneously? For example, following Jolly Phonics work, children learn the letters and sounds s, a, t, i, p and n and then blend them to form words such as sit, nip, tap, snap etc

If pictures aren't important, why are they in books? Well, in realy picture books they are certainly there to enrich the story and make many beautiful, amusing and engaging story books. However, when teaching children to read is concerned, pictures are there because decades ago, someone with too much ignorance than sense figured they /had/ to be there to /teach/ the children to read. They are put there precisely for that reason. However, there is overwhelming evidence including real live practice in classrooms to show that this really isn't necessary. Of course, the odd illustration helps enliven a piece of text and makes it more attractive and warm, but an overall picture of the whole text is all that is necessary rather than guided pictures to point to the meaning of every sentence.

Do I actually think any child would learn to read without pictures??? YES !!!!! There are *thousands of them doing it! What a silly thing to ask! All you need to know is the sounds and letters and how to blend and away you go! Once you know the sounds for the letters s, u and n and can blend them you have read the word sun. You don't need a picture of the sun right next to you to help.

With pictures, there can be too much distraction and ambiguity. With the actual letters - which, after all, are there to represent the words - that's how our written language was constructed - there is little if any ambiguity once the alphabet code has been mastered.

Your description of a child reading a word beginning with 'd' wrong from the picture who is encouraged to look at the picture and word again is very laborious, especially for the struggling child - which ca be very disheartening and in the end turn a child off reading - no matter how exciting the pictures are. I've seen it happen. I know it happens from countless other people. If that child just knows all the letters in that word in the first place, the word can be read straight off and independently. Surely that's better?

You really teach children to read individually? Isn't that a huge waste of time and your resources, including you? What the are the rest of the class doing while you are teaching one child? Surely it would be better to teach the class as a whole how to access these words and then have them all practice and reinforce this work and you monitor it on a more efficient basis?

I have no issues with how my dd is taught - I know that when the time comes, she shall be taught effectively and if I have any issues, I shall take it up with her teachers. My concerns now, are for the hundreds - thousands - of children who are struggling and even failing and never learn properly because their teachers are not properly equipped with the adequate knowledge and skills needed to teach reading properly. I know you are probably steaming at that last comment but I know it's true because I hear hundreds of teachers and trainee teachers worriedly expressing how they have never been taight to teach reading properly. And I was one of them. After teaching Year 1 for three years, I faced a move to Reception and whilst I had always had the majority of the class sailing through the reading scheme, realised that I always had this group that struggled - and even for those that succeeded, I was aware my teaching was limited, incomplete and lacking in a really secure foundation of understanding from me. Could I teach chidlren to read right from scratch? Well, I wasn't going to find out by trial and error - when the error would impact on children's lives. I found the book 'Why Children Can't Read - and What we Can Do ABout it' by Diane McGuinness. It was the most enlightening thing I have ever read - and once I had finished it all seemed so screamingly obvious. All teachers should read it. It should be on all TEacher Training Institutions' reading lists.

I have taught the way prescribed in the book ever since and all my children have learnt to read without fail (albeit still at varying progress rates, of course) as well as with more knowledge and understanding than ever before, and quicker than before.

Quite the NLS team are still refusing to acknowledge all the research out there to show how effective this is for all children is beyond me. And quite why teachers do not analyse their teaching more and persist with ineffective methods is beyond me. That is my problem. And, from reading boards like this, I have found that parents are often smarter than the teachers when it comes to this sort of thing, which is worrying.

Gobbledispook · 10/10/2005 20:14

Helloooo catflap!

Ds1 is just starting week 4 of JP. He's not done all the sounds yet. However, tonight we sat at the radiator with magnet letters of those sounds he has learned and he managed to spell out 'pen', 'mat', 'dog', 'rim', 'sat' (didn't get any further as ds3 started joining in and eating the letters - he's only 13 months!)

I'm so impressed with this approach already. It seems so logical to me. I think I'd be struggling to help if he was learning another way because there would be no logic behind really understanding the words.

Catflap · 10/10/2005 20:20

Great to hear, Gobbledispook, and well said - see, parents are fab!!

Catflap · 10/10/2005 20:23

Also, Lara2, thinking about it - if you beleived I was a parent, why not just answer my question? Why defend your methods with such ferocity? I was genuinely interested in your methodolgy - I am always fascinated to hear teachers defend the use of pictures as aids to teach reading. But you weren't to know that. I was surprised you got so heated.

aloha · 10/10/2005 20:31

Of course you can learn to read without pictures! People have done it for centuries. I don't suppose Tudor children read Spot books.
I have to say, I think Catflap's posts are some of the most interesting and revelatory I have ever read on Mumsnet.
Synthetic phonics work. And I totally agree with her point of letting children experience real success, not just letting them guess and saying that's just as good as knowing.
Teachers don't encourage guessing as a strategy in maths, do they?
I can see in my son how when they understand the sounds of English they can read new words all the time. My ds can now read billboards - 'what's Weeds mummy?' without any picture 'clues' - and he's only just four. He knows that it's w - double e sounds eeee - d -s so he can read it. How he would be supposed to guess it is beyond me!

aloha · 10/10/2005 20:34

Agree with Goobledegook - totally, without Jolly phonics I would have had no idea how to really help ds read. It just makes it so (comparatively) easy and clear.