Would anybody like to have a debate about the best age for starting school?

[emkana]

This is something I think about a lot. I am from Germany, where children start school at six/seven, though it's gradually being brought down with the aim of having most five year olds in school. School over there is certainly very different though - the children go from mostly free play at Kindergarten to very structured school, there is no "easing in" or gradual introduction to more structured work.
When I first came to the UK I thought it was terrible that children here start school so early, but then I didn't know a lot about it. Now my dd1 has just started, and I think it's great - they do so much play, but also activities that gradually introduce them to literacy/numeracy. Dd adores it all, and it's certainly a very good school. The teachers seem to be very aware of the fact that children this age still need to play mostly. It seems to me much better than going from one extreme to the other so suddenly as they do in Germany. But on here I have often read the view that school here starts too early... why do people say that? Would be v. interested in a debate!

I definitely agree with Frogs about the writing. Both my two are summer babies, but ds1 didn't do a year in reception, but went to nursery until he was 5, then straight into yr1. He did practically no writing before then (but loads of reading), and by Christmas he was writing considerably more than his peers at school. Ds2 can write very neatly, but is quite reluctant to do so, and certainly at the beginning of yr1 he'd had enough of writing after a year of it in reception!

You can hold them back, passionflower, but then they just go into Y1 rather than Reception, so it doesn't really achieve anything long-term.

I find it weird that children in the UK start school according to their age, and stay with their age group the whole way through. I'm not sure what the thinking behind that is. Does the LEA have a stated rationale for it?

I went to shool in Ireland and I think that children have to start school at 5 there, but there is a fair amount of movement in the first few years of primary school. My primary school did a lot of activities that mixed the youngest 3 years together so children moved up and down classes without really noticing that they were doing it. By the time I was in secondary school the age difference between the youngest and oldest in my year was at least 2 years but nobody really made a big thing of it.

In Scotland children are between 4.5 and 5.5 when they start school in August - their birthday would be between the 1st of March and end of February. If your child doesn't turn 5 until after the school year starts (usually middle of August) then you can choose for them not to start until the following August. This is used quite a lot by parents of especially the younger children (dec/jan/feb birthdays). Also if your child misses the cut off (eg March birthday) you can have them tested to see if they are ready for school.

interesting discussion... had a row with my FIL about this not so long ago. DD has a place at school the term she turns 4 and I stupidly told him that I probably won;t send her then - I think that is def too early for full time school and I will send her earliest in the Sept after that.
He went ballistic at this suggestion, saying that I would get a reputation as a trouble maker (whatever), that dd would be bored at home/pre-school and that she would never catch up .
Personally, I think she has years and years ahead of her of formal school.. I will send her when she is good and ready.

Message withdrawn

I would choose 7 as a minimum across the board age for children to start school. I feel earlier is too young to be away from your parents / carers for such a long period of time, and I am not in favour of formal teaching for small children, as takes place in nurseries and primary schools in this country. I think a wide range of play activities and learning through life experiences is more than adequate for at least the first 7 years of life, and probably more, which is why we are planning to home educate ds.

I really feel uncomfortable about the fact most children are in full time education before their fifth birthday in this country. I've worked in schools, nurseries and private homes with children so it's not just talking off the top of my head (however it is just my opinion of course).

Interesting thread topic.

are you frannyf? intending to home ed I mean? I would be really interested to hear about it. I am more and more inclined to the idea. Being ery heavily persuaded by my bf who is an AST and visits/works in all the primary schools in the area.
I agree with hou about the early formal teaching btw, it really goes against all my instincts.

My ds2 was 4 at the end of July. He started fulltime at school immediately (8.55 - 3pm). No leeway given at his school for differences in age. Shame as there seems to be a big difference betw. the kids who have already turned 5 and my ds2.

Really wish there were some alternative as at the moment he is only allowed to do fun, play based activities if he has behaved himself suitably. Therefore no fun for him today until 1.45pm when he was allowed to play in the sand for 20mins.

Feel like his carefree days have disappeared all too quickly.

Morocco, it's funny but your ideal day for your kids would be my son's worst nightmare (and mine too actually). He is dyspraxic, totally uncoordinated, can't play any sports, but loves to read and be with books. I suppose that is the problem - children are so different.
And even though my ds has just turned four and is starting to read and can do maths I am glad he is September born and won't go to school for another year. I think emotionally and practically he is just too young. He certainly couldn't cope with solo toileting and dressing etc. No way.

i think 4-5 is perfectly reasonable age to start school.

i thik its what expected of them when they get there thats the problem.

DD was 3.9 when she entered school for the first time for two full days and three half days each week. She learned her 20 key words and happily brought home her reading books and always insisted on reading 'her' words in any book I was reading her in bed that evening.

At 3.11 she left that school and we moved to Australia. She lost interest in reading and would no longer read 'her' words. She attended Kinder in Oz; 11 hours per week and totally play-based.

She re-entered the UK education system at 4.9 and it was as if she'd never been away.

If I had another child I would hesitate to put them into school below 5yo.

Franny 7 is way too late!! I have to disagree with you - have you never heard it said that by the age of 7 most children have become very tiny versions of who they'll be later in life!

They need social interaction with other kids more than any of us realise and their minds are like sponges so they need to be exposed to as many different experiences as possible in order to develop their character fully otherwise they're in danger of just becoming a clone of you. Not saying there's anything wrong with YOU of course, in fact maybe you're exactly the right person to raise a child for their first seven years (who am I to say)but I believe they need variety in adult interaction as well as to play with children their own age. Also, a child learns to read up to the age of seven and then reads to learn after 7.... makes you think

It depends completely on each individual child. DS2 was ready to start aged 3.5. In fact DS1's reception teacher used to joke that I could put him in a uniform and leave him there at 2.5 and everyone would think he was just a slightly shorter member of the class .

I don't think you can test and start each child accordingly which is why is seems to be geared to wards the "average" child. How the school deals with the settling in period can then easily be geared towards each individual child depending on their personality.

haven't time to read everything but my view is that children go to school too early but should be at nursery before. At school (or the ones I know) teachers don't wipe noses, do much to help them dress or cope well with the occasional accident. If it hadn't meant leaving their peer group I'd have been much happier with a good nursery. Mine needed to be learning more than playgroup was providing but they have trouble with physical skills. Schools also have a less helpful attitude to dealing with that sort of problem.

If schools had more unqualified helpers to do the nurturing then it wouldn't be as much of a problem.

Rainbow Walker, yes I can well believe that children are smaller versions of their adult selves aged 7. That is why I want to be the one to influence and care for my child, not an adult who may or may not share my beliefs and ethics, and a bunch of random children who may have nothing in common with ds except they happen to be born in the same year. For me it is crackers to cloister children away from real life like this.

I am not at all worried about the social aspect, as Ds gets plenty of interaction with other children and adults - I believe of a wider and richer type than if he were shut away in a classroom all day. How can he have a variety of experiences with people when he only spends time with one authoritative adult and the same group of children all the same age?

Of course he won't end up a 'clone' of me - if only. (just kidding)

I do think I'm the perfect person to raise him up to age 7 (and beyond), though, just as I think you are the perfect person to raise your children. Do you think teachers have some mystical powers so that they are the perfect role model / tutor / carer / companion and friend for every child? I admit many teachers are wonderful people, but I don't think they're that great!

Children only need to read by age 7 in the current school system so that the teachers can leave them to learn from books (which they obviously need to do in a class of 30+). There is otherwise no reason a child 'has' to learn to read by that or any age. Home educated children often don't read and write till they are nearer 9 or 10, and I know that will have some people screeching in horror, but it has no effect on their intelligence, later reading age or eventual academic achievement.

Harpsichordcarrier, I would love to chat about it some time. Do CAT me if you have time (however I do have a tendency to rant )

FrannyF it certainly wasn't my intention to make you rant - but I already DO have the majority of the influence on my own children (children in fact only spend 15% of their time in school) the rest of their time they ARE with me as well as at brownies/cubs/football/1:1 music tuition/church kids clubs/monthly meetings at the zoo learning about the environment and some months they even get to feed the animals... I certainly don't have a pet giraffe at home nor am I thinking of getting one!! What they bring home in their heads from school and their other interests and activities is stimulating and thought provoking and not necessarily from an angle I would have thought of. Things they've done each day are always a topic of conversation at home (I am a Mum who listens!) as are their clubs outside of school enriching their lives. I don't pretend to be a football coach; have no expertise on the particular instruments my children have each chosen; and likewise I can't offer them a stimulating environment with lots of activities that school has to offer. Teachers are great! But they are no longer the only ones with all the information. Kids have books at home, the internet, libraries, and many other resources (such as great grandparents who can talk about the war for example from personal experience).

All I'm saying is, we all want the best for our kids don't we? I'm sure your desire to homeschool is one originated in love, but I have elected to delegate some of the tasks requiring a field of expertise to others. I am still and always be the most important person in my children's upbringing.

frannyf you have echoed my beliefs much more clearly than I could have done.

I agree that nowadays kids are put on the treadmill way too soon, and like you I believe that it would be much more valuable for my children to be with me for a longer time before starting school. I just don't see why there's such a rush to begin formal education.

I know interaction/socialisation/school routine are important but I'm sure kids will pick all this up even at an older age.

As mothers, we all oversee everything don't we? We all know our children best when we take the time and make a mission out if it just like you. Hoewever, it's not an admission of failure to delegate. In the grand scheme of things if my family was an organisation I am the Chairman, Managing Director and Event Manager to know my children's needs are best met and ensure their wellbeing and upbringing is done to the best of my ability. It is because of this that I know that what other adults have to offer my child is of such great value. In Primary Education children have a different teacher every year - so at least 7 before they reach 12 as well as their LSAs and they are all different. My children have experienced young teachers with huge enthusiasm, energy and creative ideas and older teachers instilling a discipline element and unparallelled wisdom.

Children need to respect adults. Children need to understand the differences in human nature and they achieve that by being exposed to new (sometimes difficult/challenging) experiences rather than being wrapped in cotton wool by Mummy all day every day. It's not purely about academic achievement or a caring environment but it's a balancing act between the two.

What about you? Does your life end when your nest becomes empty? Children need us to be role models and see that not everything revolves around them. They'll respect you (and so will you respect you) when you have outside interests of your own.

Uh oh now I'm the one on a rant!

Rainbow Walker, no worries, we all like a good rant from time to time.

I agree that children need, ideally, varied activities, interests outside the home, and periods of time spent away from their parents. My son is only 2, so this is all in the future, but I'd like to see him take part in a wide range of pursuits as your children do. I just don't agree that school is the best place for this to happen. I'd also like the time spent away from family life to be the exception at this age - not 6 hours a day, 5 days a week. I know children only spend a small percentage of their time in school, but it's too much for me! They're asleep for a huge chunk of time; add in school, travelling etc. and what's left for me to teach him what I think is important, rather than what the government has decided children of x age have to know this year? Not long enough.

They certainly are little sponges at this age and I want to make sure that the vast majority of experiences he is having are good, positive and enriching. I'm not going to wrap him in cotton wool or protect him from everything - I can't, even if I might like to!

Of course we are all doing what we think best for our children. I hope none of what I said came across as "parents who send their children to school are evil". And I'm aware that not everyone has the choice to keep their kids at home, so I feel lucky that I can. I believe that at this age, an academic environment is inappropriate, and that learning can and should take place naturally, in a caring environment. These are very small children we are talking about here. They have the rest of their lives to learn to be fully independent, and I think there are better ways to learn respect for adults, than doing what you are told for 6 hours a day.

I forgot to add that if given a choice between school or staying at home DD1 would choose school any day of the week! And that's not cos I stick them in front of the TV while I get on with the house work, in fact we're are hardly ever at home during the day. I'm happy to assume that because DD is happy I have made the right decision for her.

dd1 isn't 4 until the end of november but was ready for reception this year. she has started nursery at a pre-prep school so she gets into their reception but academically and socially could handle reception - she quite bright, can add up/take away simple sums, just about fully reading, writing letters/name etc. it does annoy me that we could hold her back if she was 4 and not ready but not put her in early - she is bored at the moment but we just see nursery as play time and do abit more at home with her when she asks to.

FrannyF: If I think back to when my eldest was just 2 I think I know where you're coming from... but if my eldest son hadn't been to school and been inspired by teachers and other children outside of our family he'd never have had the opportunity to develop the unique dreams of his own that make him who he is. (He's now in year 8 and is a fantastic guitarist and footballer) DS2 had a male teacher in year 3 who was an actor/part time teacher - his inspiration definitely contributed to making my son into a very confident public speaker and always gets the funny lead parts in school productions and assemblies - he loves the limelight and loves the popularity that his ability to entertain people brings. Again without school this wouldn't have come about.
My daughter amongst other things does Irish Dancing (outside of school) because a girl in her class started going (very important to girls to know someone else there!) and now loves it - and her twin brother excels as a runner over both short and long distances.

All are very happy, secure individuals but with their own minds and sense of independence...

Homeschooling may not have been practical for me with four, but it's through school not AT school that all these other interests have come about.

Just think carefully how you intend to give your son his own sense of self as he grows and develops as an individual - I certainly could not have envisaged 11 years ago when my eldest was 2 where we'd have reached now as a family.

I feel very strongly that my children have each decided their own paths (even if it has been with a little invisible guidance from me)...

If DS2 had to stay with me until starting school aged 7, I don't think both of us would survive the experience!

RW, I think you are right, it is not something to be undertaken lightly and I do intend to do some serious thinking and planning, both before and after the time when ds would be due to start school. I too want my child to be a well-rounded individual, and I think if you do not have the contacts through school it can be a lot harder to make sure the opportunities are there. Luckily we have a home ed community locally and that will be one source of inspiration.

I certainly don't want to keep him closeted within our family - we are lucky to know people who are happy to share their interests with us, and I will make sure that ds spends more time with them as he gets older. Children who don't attend school are still able to attend music, sporting and other activities just as your children do. What you say about deciding their own paths is so true - ds has already made it quite clear what his passions are, and as he is not even nursery age yet we have had to find ways of allowing him to follow them - quite a challenge. However I find people in the community are happy to help when asked, and I would imagine I will hopefully get more inventive as he gets older.

Soupdragon - well, quite! It's all very well for me to say "this is what we are planning," but meanwhile, in the real world...

Please take everything I say with a pinch of salt, this is speaking as a woman who was going to give birth at home with only natural pain relief....yeah right, I ended up in hospital pretty quick having an epidural!