Dd1 (Y6) singled out for 'bad behaviour'

[frogs]

Dd1 (aged 10, Y6) has a somewhat chequered history at her primary school. Essentially she is bored rigid by the classwork, and has a tendency to chat, fidget and read books of her own on the quiet. She also can't resist correcting the teacher's mistakes, which has got her into trouble in the past. But that is pretty much as far as it goes -- don't think anyone could describe her as seriously disruptive, though she can be a bit lippy. But nothing that a competent teacher shouldn't be able to handle with a few humourous putdowns.

She was excited last week that the school were going to allocate positions of responsibility for Y6 head boy/girl, deputy, prefects, etc. She knew she wasn't headgirl material, but was hoping for a job of some kind, eg. infant playground duty. Instead she has come home today and is one of only 12 children in the class without any post at all. The other 11 are all hardcore disruptive children. It is very obvious that she is the only one of her group of friends who has been left out the other children are all talking about it. I think she is actually very upset, but is covering it up with the whole teenage routine: "Don't care, don't want to be a prefect anyway, it's all pathetic, they just use it to control you" etc, which is precisely the attitude I've been trying to discourage in her.

I was really hoping this year was going to be better (last year a disaster with an inexperienced teacher totally out of her depth). Someone please say something to make me feel better -- I just want to go and bang my head against a wall.

time for a chat with the teacher I think. That's not on at all.

If you get no joy with the teacher, chat to the Head. No guns blazing, but calm and collected with both of them. Write down what you want to say and then go for it.

I hope you get it sorted. Not impressed with that teacher at all.

Frogs, that stinks!! Sounds to me like the teacher has let her personal feelings override her common sense and decency in this case.

I was a bright bored child at school (also known for correcting the teacher's mistakes)who was treated in the same way - I just became more badly behaved on the basis of "give a dog a bad name" etc

Ask the teacher how exactly this is going to help your dd1, and does the teacher see her in the same category as these disruptive pupils, because that's how it comes across to you, her and all her friends.

OOOOoooh, I'm spitting mad now. .

just one thing, before you go in all guns blazing to the teacher, who was it that chose the positions? Was it only that class teacher, or was there a group of them???

Were any of the 'naughty' children from the other classes given any?

Oh no.:{ How can they leave 12 children without posts? That's rubbish. Especially rubbish for your girl. It sounds like they might be trying to crush her spirit a bit instead of celebrating her cool intelligent and lust for life. I agree with Mars that you need a chat with the teacher.
On the making you feel better front... she always sounds amazingly cool and funny to me. You wouldn't want a kid who was scared to rebel a bit in her stead, would you?

intelligence I meant

Oh dear, this sounds to me like a really bad call on the part of the teacher, or whoever has made the decision.

Last year ds1 was put on School Council, and I have to say I had my doubts about his suitability for the post. But the 'responsibility' was amazingly good for him, and he really benefitted from it. I'm sure the same would definitely apply for your dd.

Does she have the same teacher as last year? If you have any sort of rapport with him/her, I would encourage you to go in and ask whether there is some job/role she could have.

"It sounds like they might be trying to crush her spirit a bit instead of celebrating her cool intelligent and lust for life."

Scummy, that's what I was thinking but didn't articulate! I think you've hit the nail on the head.

I think it was the teacher who made the decision, though it was announced in Assembly by the head. It's a small school, so there's only one class in each year group, and the whole prefect thing is a Y6 privilege. They're mainly quite low-key roles, like supervising the dinner queue, or arranging the seats for assembly, but it's quite powerful for Y6 to have that kind of authority. I wouldn't mind if it were half a dozen of the most responsible children chosen for these roles, but since two thirds of the class has some kind of post, it's pretty obvious that the only ones who haven't are those who can't be trusted to take responsibility for themselves, never mind others.

And the thing is, dd1 is the kind of child who responds well to the challenge of responsibility. At home we've deliberately given her more freedom than many of her classmates have to eg. go places by herself, because it has a very positive effect on her behaviour. From where I'm standing her behaviour is usually quite resposible, sometimes impressively so -- she's in charge of bath and bedtime for her younger siblings, so after supper she will take them upstairs and call me when everyone's in their jamas with teeth brushed ready for a story. Which is not bad for a just 10yo. Whereas heavy-handed top-down discipline is completely counter-productive.

Unfortunately I don't know the teacher at all -- she was new last year. But she's always seemed like good news from what I'd heard about her. If I go in it will just make me look like a stroppy parent who can't accept their child's punishment (if that's what it is). Plus dd1 would be mortified. In fact we'd had a meeting with the head in the autumn term of last year, cos we were concerned about the number of times dd1 had been sent out of the classroom. Head claimed to know nothing about it but promised to investigate and get back to us. That was the last we heard of it.

I remember when they assigned prefects at my secondary school I wasn't chosen and burst out crying when I got home and told my mum. Really sympathise with your daughter, would mention it to the teacher.

you won't seem like a stroppy parent if you go in comletely calmly to talk to the teacher.

I really think you should go in and also you should have a word to the Head about the last incident that you spoke to him/her about.

From what I can see, it's the parents that go rushing in with the "my-child-is-perfect-and-NEVER-does-anything-wrong", all guns blazing who are seen as the stroppy parents.

You are concerned for you daughter and well you might.

Incidentally, which day are you planning on seeing that CofE school in town? Not the green uniform (StM, but GCs)

In DS class {also one class per year}

They are in 2 or 3 and do a duty a week

Last week it was DS turn to ring the handbell

All the class do it even the naughty ones like these others in your DD class

Why not suggest if they can do it on a rota system?

IMHO I agree with scrummymummy

I certainly think you need to find out more by talking to the classteacher initially. Could the roles be on a rota for half a term, then change? Is there any chance that your daughter might have said something derogatory about being a prefect in a stroppy moment, so was not considered, but is now regreting it?

Could you approach the teacher simply by saying that your dd had a rather unsettled year last year, and that at the beginning of this year you want to do everything you can to support the school in supporting her, and you wondered how the teacher felt she was settling. Mention that she has seemed upset by the lack of a prefect role, and explain that giving her responsilbilty at home has helped with the more recalcitrant aspects of her behaviour, which you are really working on. Ask if there's anything that can be done (although obviously you will need your poor dd's assurance that she really does want to do it, which may involve swallowing some pride...). You're not pushy - you're v open about how you can perceive her as being challenging at times, but also are clear about how the school has failed her in the past - you sound very measured to me.

In any case, giving Y6's special responsibilties is part and parcel of a good Citizenship and PHSE curriculum, and as such many schools actually include these roles in their teaching and learning policies, but that means they must be open to anyone willing to give it a go (like school council, peer mediation etc etc). I'd question it purely from that point of view, if they aren't helpful, though I doubt it would come to that.
Good luck with whatever you decide, and I think your daughter sounds fantastic, and would relish the challenge of teaching her!

I too hate coming across as a 'stroppy/pushy parent', but sometimes it's necessary! Last year ds2's teacher was just not handling him well, she wasn't motivating and inspiring him, and just moaned to us about his behaviour after school 2 or 3 times a week. In the end we requested a meeting with her after Christmas - knowing she would think we were ultra stroppy/pushy! But it paid huge dividends. We suggested ways she should deal with ds2 (but let her think they were her idea!), and their relationship improved immeasurably. He subsequently had two good terms with her, unlike some of the other boys in the class.

OK, so she probably does think at least partly that I'm "stroppy/pushy mother from hell", but IMO it was worth it.

Thanks for all these, everyone! I fear I shall have to arrange a meeting with the teacher to hear the details of why dd1 was sent out of the classroom today (apparently this was after the allocation of prefects duh). Then I can steer the subject onto how much better she is likely to behave when kept productively occupied. The unfairness of it is that she is always one of the first in the queue when they're looking for volunteers to go and sharpen pencils or whatever in the infants much more so than many of the newly-chosen prefects. She's currently glued to David Starkey on Henry VIII -- no sign of fidgets or chatting here atm. Go figure.

Might also wave at teacher the Ed Psych's report we had done this time last year when dd1 was at loggerheads with her Y5 teacher, which does shed some light and make suggestions for her teachers which have always been soundly ignored.

Aaaaargh -- rapidly losing the will to live.

Marslady -- we're visiting GC on evening of 27th Sept. We wouldn't get into St M, as too far away and we're not CoE. Was counting on dd1 getting one of the language places at GC. It is a risk, though, which is why we'll probably put it 2nd.

you know that the positions aren't revealed to the schools don't you? We sre putting it first cos we have a great comp that she will get into. We are putting the comp 2nd. We might see you on the 27th

Positions are revealed to schools if it forms part of their admissions criteria.

We're putting GC 2nd because our first choice is a Catholic grammar in north London, which she has a pretty good chance of getting into. Whereabouts in London are you, ML? Victoria is a reasonably easy tube ride from us, but right through central London in the rush hour.

N10, so you can guess the comp we have right on our doorstep!

Ah, so more of a hike for you than for us! You do see quite a lot of GC uniforms up in the wilds of N London, though, so they wouldn't be alone. Are you CoE, or just trying on the offchance?

Our first choice is up your way, the one with the startling purple uniforms. There had to be a downside. Also thinking of HB, but don't know if we can face the scrum. Going to have a look, anyway.

yeah I'm not sure if HB would be a good choice for DD1. DS1 is in a selective boys and is doing really well, but he is competitive and really focussed. DD1 is more arty, sensitive, friend loving iyswim. So I don't know. I may go and look though.

Thre are a few that have gone to GC from our primary school, and yes.. I'm CofE and quite involved. DD1 will also be trying for the language place. I have a recurring nightmare that she leaves the hall and doesn't do the paper cos she got bored. I so hope that that isn't true.

Sorry to butt in but ML what does the language place involve?

Is it french or german or latin?

n question is a specialist language school, and they reserve a certain number of places (I think 10 a year) for children with a special aptitude for languages. (It's a girls' school only, though, RTKM!)

They test this by giving them an optional language test on the same day as the banding test that everyone has to take. Anyone can take the language test, but the school are very coy about what it involves. Apparently it doesn't require any previous knowledge of foreign languages, but is designed to test innate aptitude. I would imagine it might involve a made-up language of some kind so that no-one has any advantage.

@ girls school,

Don't think we could send DS there

oh, frogs, I am so sorry. (And , obviously.) Also sorry I'm so late to thread.

Yes, of course you should require a meeting - actually in the larger context they need to explain their policy of leaving any children out - what kind of message of "you are unsalvageable" does it send? - let alone deliberately passing over a child who would directly benefit - and they know would benefit.

I don't know if they're crap enough for this, but they might say, "well we had no idea what to give her to do - what might you suggest?". If so - I was just talking to dh about a wonderful gifted teacher friend I had in grad school, and his early school life had been turned around by being given a tutoring role at school, helping much younger children who were finding work difficult. Maybe this is un-pc, maybe it would feel like exploiting your dd (which of course would be dreadful) - but it was a bit of a life-changer for him.

(And PS I use it a lot with ds, of course - get him to do baby arithmetic-tutoring with dd. It's incredibly funny & sweet to see how excited he is when she "gets it".)

Have you made any progress on this, frogs?

Thanks for remembering this!

Yes, I had a meeting with the teacher after school yesterday. She seemed very nice, calm and competent, which is an improvement on last year, at least. One reason she did give was that dd1 wasn't always particularly patient with other children (granted, but no worse than some of the other little madams in her group, all of whom did get posts of responsibility). She denied that dd1 had been singled out, though I didn't find this completely convincing.

I pointed out that dd1 was getting quite cynical about school and that being given challenge (academic and otherwise) would probably improve her behaviour. She promised to think about strategies for keeping her occupied, which is a start, though I won't hold my breath.

But good to have a teacher who's prepared to talk sensibly. All in all, a mixed outcome. [uncertain emoticon]

Miaou, your reply to my email came back without any extra message in it! Did you want the wrap sent?