Inequalities in our schools - do they exist and if so does it worry you and what best to do?

[JustineMumsnet]

I'm posting this on behalf of the Observer. Think it's quite an interesting discussion

Hi there,

The Observer is carrying a news feature this Sunday looking at inequalities in Britain's schools and I'm keen to generate a discussion among mothers about some of the issues.

In particular, I'm interested in how people feel about the growing gender gap between girls and boys? Do mothers worry about their sons underperforming in school or behaving badly? Why do you think there is a gender gap? The story will also look at special needs and concerns about bullying. Do parents of children with SEN worry about this? What about parents who find out their children have bullied others - how do you tackle that? And what do you think teachers can do to help improve the performance of children from the poorest families? Please do call me if you'd like to speak about this issue or just post your thoughts here.

All the best,

Anushka

Policy editor
The Observer
07786702523

Life isn't fair - grow up! The attempt to make U.K. education 'fair' is a totally childish pretence. And a pretence that protects us from acknowledging and dealing with much more serious inequalities in the world. We can pat ourselves on the back for trying to be fair!! While our Western lifestyle is the cause of the crushing poverty of half the world. Give up trying to make it fair - it isn't - your child's education and mine is at the expense of hundreds who never get an education at all.

Life is, indeed, complex. I guess 'fair' is a concept closely related to 'hope'. We all have different circumstances and different hopes.

I don't need to worry about my DC. They are fine and are/have been well educated within the state grammar school system.

What I do worry about is their peers who have not been so lucky.

Some of them will have been deeply misinformed about the equality of their qualifications.

Some of them will not have a hope in hell of getting into a 'top' university because they will have been disadvantaged from the outset by taking inappropriate GCSEs.

Their places will have been taken up by pupils from the private sector who are not more intelligent, but who have been advised correctly as to the GCSEs/A levels they should take in order to secure a place at a leading university, let alone Oxbridge.

There is a two tier education system going on at the moment in the UK. It is grossly unfair.

It's not just it is patently unfair, but that as a country if we don't have an educated work force we lose out to countries with higher skilled workforces. Plus children who do not learn become disillusioned with their opportunities (limited due to the poor level of basic skills, let alone education) and are less likely to get jobs and more likely to pursue a variety of antisocial behaviours as adults.

I always think it is sad how children who seem to be engaged and happy at primary school end up achieving so little. I've seen this in my own family, where my nephew and niece who seemed perfectly intelligent have been pushed towards vocational courses with little prospects. It seems such a waste.

In a small town in my area we have a local authority co-educational comp, there is also a smaller girls only school nearby ( a mile down the road)

The head teacher of the comprehensive high school excuses the poor exam results of her school by saying that the girls only school attracts the highest achieving girls.

I chose fee paying boys (and girls) schools for our 5 children which I think helps boys because they are in an all boy environment where the boy is not wrong or naughty but normal and teachers are mostly male.

We do need more encouragement for girls though to stay in position of power or move into them. That's the problem not boys not doing as well up to age 21 because beyond about age 25 boys do better at most things until they're 80 so there is still al ong way to go to ensure girls have 50% or more of the positions of power in the UK.

I think there is both a gender and a class divide. Gender because of social pressure - girls in a mixed comp can, it seems, be pretty and popular OR clever at "male" (uggh!) subjects. Class because expectation of deprived areas is low (which is unfair in itself) and because sadly even some teachers are capable of saying what amounts to "don't aim too high because you won't fit in". This latter is particularly prevalent when state school children from a school with no Oxbridge history try to aim for Oxbridge - I heard it a lot from other state school students there. I will say my state school encouraged me all the way but my fellow pupils both thought and said "Who do you think you are going there".

When we have equal numbers of women in top jobs as men, then I'll start to worry about girls outperforming boys at school.

Regarding the gender difference, I wonder how many boys see that their class teachers are usually female and senior leadership usually male, and make the connection that they are likely to do well without having to put in an inordinate amount of effort?

As a teacher I agree that class and parental aspiration has a lot more influence than any other factor.

Agree with qumquat.

And I do rather seethe at the idea that girls are just more quiescent, less enquiring, prepared to be spoonfed and regurgitate pre-packaged knowledge as opposed to Boisterous Questioning boys.

I object to that view as well, mother. It is the difference between individuals that matters, not the hard-to-define differences between girls and boys.

We certainly need to do moer to show girls they can lead the nation and have happy families, something boys seem to know they can. That's where our true work must lie.

It's not just us. Men need to be active in this too.

I know people who live in a deprived area where the boys are offered BTEC Construction etc and the girls similar in Childcare etc. This seems to reinforce gender stereotyping and also limits their options. These are not the "hard / strict" academic subjects that the top universities will expect so that route to social mobility is being restricted for these children no matter how bright. It is already difficult enough to move up the social ladder in this country and if you aren't even given the necessary tools by the education system how else can you manage it.

The gender gap in reality is: less than 5% of women on boards of top companies. Women earning way less than men, women retiring on less pension. More women live in poverty than men.

This is the issue that should be tackled in schools, otherwise women work hard for less reward and everyone worries about the boys?

Schools bizarrely suit girls but the world of work and pensions definitely suits the boys.

I think there is an argument to say that the qualities which are encouraged in girls by parents and in schools - compliance, passivity, obedience, quietness - which make them do well at school relative to boys who are expected to be challenging, adventurous, noisy, can be the ones that hold them back in the workplace.

There's been that research recently that suggested mothers criticise the behaviour in their daughters which they encourage of dismiss as playfulness in boys leading girls to be more self-critical and less confident later.

I get quite cross with the idea that the school curriculum and environment is somehow 'female friendly' when the texts and subjects that are studied still have a largeley male focus i.e. the most popular GCSE set texts are still written by men with male heroes like Lord of the Flies, Of Mice and Men, Macbeth.

Now that the things about the curriculum that supposedly suit girls more (such as coursework) are being taken away girls are STILL outperforming boys.

Research indicates that where girls have historically lagged behind boys it is blamed on their own weaknesses but when boys lag behind girls it is perceived to be some fault of the teachers, teaching, curriculum or school environment. Girls achievement is seen as happening at the expense of boys.

Well said fivecandles! My DD is only 3 and thus still at nursery but I've already had comments from a previous carer (no longer there, thank heavens) about how "persistent" my DD is - this was said in a fairly negative way ie it's very trying. I call that determined and I will continue to encourage it - I explained this to the carer - as I think it will stand her in good stead later on.

I'm also now fighting the "x is for girls, y is for boys" nonsense. I keep explaining that things are just things - they are not for girls or boys, they are for everyone.

I really, really do not want to go on forking out approx £1000 per month for my DD's education (she's at full time nursery as I work full time) but I really do think it's likely she'll be going straight into a single sex school from nursery and that means private sector.

I do not want my DD placed in an environment where she is expected to "behave like a nice little girl" (although she is one by nature). I want her to be in an environment where she is challenged to learn and succeed; where she is encouraged to be compete so she understands that she can't always win or that, with hard work and good luck, she can. I hope that my lcoal Primary School will prove me wrong but, from the comments above, I think it's unlikely.

FWIW, I think it's disgusting that this option is not available to all parents. It's wrong that I can buy this for my DD and other people can't. We all want what we see as the best for our children and it's wrong that this is not available to all. I am really torn about private education. I believe it to be wrong on many, many levels but when it's what I'll probably be doing.

has this been published yet? anyone have a link? (I've been looking but can't find it.)

oh duh, I've just found it

here

oh I see, she's more or less ignored what was said on the thread and cherry-picked a few unrepresentative quotes to back up her preconceived agenda re gender

So the issue is how to ensure girls make their way at work.
Ensure they learn self confidence.
How can you make a girl think she is the best of the bunch rather than lucky to be somewhere.

Help them learn how to work smart which isn't necessarily just long hours and working hard with their head down. How to be seen, make their name, be liked by the right people.

How to network and all that stuff.

More women under 40 are millionaires in the Uk than men perhaps in part because if they cannot make their way to the top within a company where anyway it's hard to make a lot of money as you're a mere employee you go and work for yourself and earn even more. Thus I suppose in a sense the discrimination which may exist could in a strange way benefit women who get out and ensur they work for themsleves and keep 100% of their profits to themselves.

I think this is the article - Divided School System. M-Netters are quoted a few times.

Sorry - just noticed it's already linked