school takin the mick part two?

[Tortington]

some mumsnetters amy remember an inane rant i had about my twins primary school asking for money for just about everything.

this week i have had two letters one from twins primary and one from my sons secondary

the primary school wants money for the yr6 children to go on a 4 day holiday during term time( am sure its got someeducational purpose which escapes me) this holiday will cost 300ish pounds - twins means 600ish pounds for me to find - this is an average school not private or anything!

13yr old son comes home begging to go on a skiing trip which his school are organising for 2005. this will cost 600ish pounds for a week not including any equipment hire or lift passes or anything.

now i applaude the organisation which means i can go away and asess finances and i probably can do it - but at the expense of next years family holiday.

the secondary school at the moment just wants expressions of interest and then i assume we can sort out a payment plan with the school.

everyone in year 6 went on this years school trip and it would gut the kids to have to stay in year 5 for that week whilst all their classmates are away.

how can the school justify this trip during a most important year? and what about the cost? i think the education system has gone maaaaaaad.

what does the great mumsnetting public think?

I agree wholeheartedly. Why is the school wasting their precious little resources on organizing school trips. Not only are the children not getting educated while they are off on a trip, but they are losing out when the teachers are organizing the trip instead of their lesson plans.
And as you pointed out, it's really hard on the parents who can't afford it as it puts them in the position of not letting their children do something that all the other children are doing. And personally I think it's much more important that you have a family holiday than your child goes on a school holiday. And it's inappropriate that the school is putting you in the position of having to choose.

I think you should complain both to your school and to the educational authority and to the minister in charge of education.

Great Scott, custardo! That's a ludicrous amount of money. wtf do they think they're doing?

totally agree with scummymummy and sofiaAmes sentiments - this is an outrageous amount of money to expect to fork out, esp. as it is something that the whole year tend to get involved in and so implies that is is "expected" that all will attend rather than catering for a smaller number. I would complain too.

Just a point about SofiaAmes post - hate to correct you, but there are a few points where I feel the need (again) to stick up for the teachers ( although i agree the finances are way off line). I don?t believe the school will be wasting any resources organising this trip - the parents (clearly!) are covering the costs and most school trips? finances are organised in such a way that either the staff go free (eg. 1 free adult place toe very 10 children...) or will be subbed by the parents. As it is in term time staff won?t be given any extra money to cover their own personal expenses, let alone be paid for working 24 hours a day - lthey can forget any kind of praise or recognition for doing it... How many other jobs could see you working for an entire week 24 hours a day, put up in accomodation that (lets face it) is much less than the standard hotel accom. that most companies would use for business trips and simultaneously be totally accountable for the wellbeing of 30,40,50 children plus? Not for the fainthearted. I ran many trips and while I confess I enjoyed them at the time, they always left me exhausted and often out of pocket - buying the children treats such as ice creams etc. (50/60 of these are expensive in one go but what the heck, we had a good time..) As for the planning time - don?t know where you have got the idea that teachers organise trips instead of lesson plans. Sure, organising a trip, writing letters, budgetting, diet needs, individual health needs, numerous phone calls arranging accomodation, chasing up parental replies, banking money, excursions, coaches, insurance etc. etc. is time consuming but I can assure you that this was never at the expense of the lesson plans - all done in unpaid overtime. Most teachers with enough enthusiasm and selflessness to organise a trip does it because they genuinely love teaching and being with the children so are more likely to be the same ones who put time and care into planning their lessons.
Final point - as for not getting educated when away - I disagree totally. Of course they get educated in many different ways. Not only will they have some kind of educational slant (nature based trip, geography, even physical education such as skiing etc.) but they mature and develop in so many other ways as well - social skills, self sufficiency, even manners sometimes. I have seen shy children blossom on trips thanks to the huge sense of achievement they achieved when they managed to complete an round of orienteering, a cocky child learn to be a bit more humble and trust others a bit more thanks to spending a few days canoeing, a behaviourally challenging child finally learn to admit that he needs help etc. etc. etc. There has to be more to school education than just the academic learning otherwise what is the point?
Despite all that (as you can see I am all for school trips as being really valuable part of education) I still think this is way too much cash and would want to see a financial breakdown of costs covered - is it a 4 star hotel in Barbados or what?!!

Here here stripymouse , I'm with you on this one. Although I never ran a trip as expensive as this one, I would have to say that nearly every Y6 child who came on the trips would say that it was the best thing that they did. It is the ultimate in broad and balanced curriculums. Back in school it is very easy to be sucked into SATs panic mode, but outside away from the school environment you can really get to know the children in your care - and surely that is what primary education should be about, educating the whole child, not just the bit that will be tested in May. Most trip centres now run National Curriculum aligned activities with extras like star gazing/trampolining etc etc thrown in. The week away from school, in my experience, does not hinder education but adds to it. I have had special needs children who really understood 'food chains' having found what was living in a particular environment and working out who would eat whom.
In terms of self esteem and confidence (surely a main aim of education) these trips are second to none - and raised self esteem is certainly what you want before these children have to face secondary schools.
These trips are exhausting. There is no let up from the children in your care, even walking them down the road can be stressful, but despite the weekends I have lost sleeping after them, I would still say that they are the some of the most beneficial things I have done

I totally disagree. I went on a couple of school trips (nothing like these ridiculous beanos, however) and saw no benefit whatsoever (certainly far less than on a family holiday or even a trip to the natural history museum) but I did see a lot of homesick children crying every night. So skiing holidays are educational eh? So that must make Tara Palmer Tompkinson one of Britain's intelligensia then. I would put my foot down and say no, and explain why. ie they cost a lot of money (valuable education in the value of money) and otherwise none of you can have a family holiday (valuable education in prioritising and value of family ties) and that they might have to stick out a bit (valuable education in sticking to principles and being able to strike out on your own/be different without shame). I think it is utterly disgraceful and indefensible for schools to demand this kind of money from parents. It can only be divisive between rich and poor parents and show up the children. I think the negative impact of no family holiday can be huge - to parents as well as children. I agree. Complain big time.

I also agree that school trips can be excellent in terms of 'life experience', building a child's confidence etc etc and that it is VERY hard work for the teachers. My next door neighbour's children have recently been away for a week's trip and the difference in their attitude/behaviour etc was amazing - it was obviously a really good experience.

It is a lot of hard work for the teachers, I used to run Cub Camps (slightly different I know) and that was totally exhausting but again - wonderful for many of the boys for whom it was their first time away without their families.

I do appreciate that it is an awful amount of money - but surely older kids could be encouraged to earn pocket money/get a paper round/do odd jobs etc to show some form of comittment towards the expense. Our scouts used to go away on jamborees and always had to 'earn' the money for their trip (plus a contribution towards children from other countries who couldn't possibly afford it).

It is a sensitive area, but I do think school trips offer children a lot.

Personally, I think the main purpose of education should be education. Not going on holiday.

Just re-read your original message Custardo - 4 days for £300 is outrageous - we took the Cubs camping for 4 days - total £25!!

Whilst I accept the points raised by stripeymouse and allatsea on the effort and expense etc that the teachers will put in, I think that there should be a limit in the amount of costs parents will be asked to contribute to school trips each year. If for example, there was an absolute maximum of £200 per child per year and parents knew this at the start of the acedemic year then they would be more likely to be able to budget for it without having to loose family holidays etc.

Custardo, I suppose the only good thing is that they have notified you of the trips well in advance but the costs are outrageous - what will happen when your twins reach the ski trip year!!!? £1200 plus the cost of passes,skis etc?!

Lindy, and I bet they enjoyed it more and 'learned' more too!

I think school trips can be educational and valuable but the costs here are ridiculous. Custardo, if the costs were less (a lot less!) per child (with lots of notice) would you feel less cross and would you pay it? Also, how do you feel about the educational value of these trips in particular? I think

• £300 for 4 days is completely outrageous.
• You absolutlely shouldn't have to sacrifice a family holiday for a 4 day school trip

Didn't the school say they had a fund to help parents who couldn't afford these trips or am I imagining that? If you say your twins can't go what happens? Does the whole trip get cancelled? I remember these blackmailing type of arrangements cropping up somewhere, may have been you then too. If so, do it. Let them cancel and I bet you won't be the only parent who is relieved. If I were in your position we just couldn't afford it, full stop so ds wouldn't be able to go unless ex dh agreed to pay for it which I expect he would, but that's not the point - assuming parents can afford this extra expense is not on IMO.

I agree that the costs here sound ott. How can they possibly justify £300 for 4 days - what sort of a trip is it ? Also when you consider that most School Ski trips use budget accommodation or at best have 3 or 4 to a hotel room, £600 basic seems a bit steep. You could quite easily be looking at an extra £200 (conservatively) for lessons, ski hire and lift pass. I hope for that they are flying, going peak season and going to a decent (snow-sure) resort.

Is this also in term time as I would have hoped that it could be scheduled for either half term or Easter. Having said that on the continent we get designated Ski Weeks (staggered by country, region, town etc) and the older kids in our school tend to go on trips during a term week in March which is in addition to our one week Ski break, but the local schools get a 2 week February / March break.

I suppose at least you have plenty of notice but the pressure to conform must be immense.

My stepdaughter's school is private and often asks for wild amounts of cash for trips. We would say no but her mother is married to a millionaire so he pays. She doesn't enjoy them that much and I have nevers seen any evidence of educational benefit. IMO she learns much more from going away with us. For example, we went to SW France, so told her all about the Cathar faith in the region in medieval France and the persecution of the Cathars by the Inquisition and all the interestingly gruesome death by burning, stoning in wells etc that occurred. Then we went to visit a Cathar castle and imagined being beseiged etc etc. And there was time to read books - she's deep in PG Wodehouse ATM. I'm not saying a school trip couldn't be like that, only I'm damn sure that a skiing trip isn't!

My stepdaughter's school is private and often asks for wild amounts of cash for trips. We would say no but her mother is married to a millionaire so he pays. She doesn't enjoy them that much and I have nevers seen any evidence of educational benefit. IMO she learns much more from going away with us. For example, we went to SW France, so told her all about the Cathar faith in the region in medieval France and the persecution of the Cathars by the Inquisition and all the interestingly gruesome death by burning, stoning in wells etc that occurred. Then we went to visit a Cathar castle and imagined being beseiged etc etc. And there was time to read books - she's deep in PG Wodehouse ATM. I'm not saying a school trip couldn't be like that, only I'm damn sure that a skiing trip isn't!

BTW what is this obsession with skiing? What's wrong with staying at home and playing football, if you like sport? Skiing is, IMO, cold, boring and bloody dangerous and like bleeding money!

Having just waved goodbye to my twin's who left for a camping holiday in France yesterday, I feel I have to let my feeling be known on this one, My eldest son who is 14 this year went to Italy for a week skiing in February this year, he had the time of his life, he made many new friends and found a passion which I am sure he will follow through to his adulthood, we were told about it when he started school in 2001 so we had 14 months to save for it, he took up two paper rounds to help with the cost's, Yes it did stretch us to the limit but I feel it was worth every penny, the cost was £600.00 that included full board, lift passes, equipment that was needed, plus tutor fees for the week.

The camping trip the twins have just gone on has cost £600.00 for both of them, its an activity holiday many activities I have never even heard of never mind experienced ie Dragon Boating, Kayaking, British canoe Union awards, Laser Pico sailing, Windsurfing, Archery, Orienteering ,air rifle shooting and Fencing. They will spend a day at Disneyland Paris, as you can see they will be very busy for the next week, doing things that neither myself or DH could possibly teach them, I think that the school is giving them lesson's in life experiences beyond our dreams and I thank them for it. Yes I agree pressure to do what others are doing is great but all my children are aware that they would be going on one trip only with school, friendships are made in the first few years in secondary school's that can last a life time. I dont want to deny them these opportunites, next year though we will all be going on holiday together, Love them or Hate them school trips allow our children to become more self sufficent and aware of the world around them, I applaud the teachers that give their time and energy to the children, a respect is forged between a child and teacher on out of school activities like these.

I hope when they do return they have a story they will be able to carry around with them for life, and appreciate what we have done as parents for them.

Aloha

I agree. IMO the time would be better spent learning about and appreciating one's own country - geography , history, environment etc from visiting Field Centres closer to home. Probably not as glam for the kids though! My first trip abroad was a day trip from Newhaven to Dieppe with the school aged 14 - not really sure what educational value that had either!! Nevertheless I would have loved to go on one of the School's ski trips, but we could n't afford it. (My brother, I learned afterwards, used to tear the notes up for these sort of trips and never bothered to show them to our parents)

At the moment, living in Switzerland, we are fortunate enough to have the mountains as our environment and therefore for our kids snow and skiing are very much part of Winter life. As ds is only 5 we have yet to really encounter this dilemma but we already feel obliged to let him go on field trips of dubious value, including a one sledding trip which I have subsequently heard from a mum who went along to help was badly organised and pretty dangerous. Probably a different thread though.

what a response thank you. i think i sit a little in both camps - ofcourse i would love for my chidlren to go away with their friends and have the memories of a different kind of holiday to last them a lifetime - i mean skiing is something we will never do as a family and really will be a once in a lifetime experience.

and the twins give em a funny look whenever they hand over a letter asking for something from school because they think i am going to say no. earlier in the year it really broke their hearts to have to stay at school while the whole of their class went to the war museum in london - becuase of my principles - the school IMO had already had too much money.#

then my husband feels embarrassed for them. he was one of those kids in the thatcher years whose dad was unemployed for 6 years and he had literally nothing - and so he does everything he can to give out kids things - becuase he knows the feeling.

so i dont know what to do. if i write a letter toschool i will be fighting hubby on this one too.

re: the skiing i want my eldest son to have this lifetime opportunity, but he quit his paperround and shows no inclination i shall have to chat with him further as he has turned into a lying toerag - more on the teenage thread when i get round to it i think!
maybe he is missing the sterness of his godmother eh rhuby?

My stepdaughter (15) is going on a schooltrip next Easter - to florida !!! This takes in Disney, Epcot, seaworld, but nothing I view as of academic value.

The cost for 8 days is £900, and I think it's outrageous. What's more the school want it all paid for by November, no doubt so they can sit on the funds for 2-3 months to get a bit of interest.

I am further appalled that her mother has not expected her to do anything to help make the money for the trip. When it was first announced DH and I kept offering to pay her for babysitting, car cleaning and other stuff, as well as suggesting where she could find weekend jobs etc. All was met with a disinterested shrug from SD. We have given up.

At least her mum hasn't asked us for money for it (but the deadline's not here yet, watch this space!)

Custy, I work in the UK school outdoor education and adventure field, so I'm not getting in to this one on here...will talk to you Sunday But have the school ever asked the company if they offer any discount for twins . In my experience most do, but schools rarely bother to even ask. Which centre is the Yr 6 trip going to?

Custy - what, are you letting your kids get away with something?? You are seriously letting me down, here. Get stuck in!

LMAO aloha!

Sorry Stripymouse, I didn't mean to make a complaint about the teachers when I was talking about wasted resources. It was about the administration that takes advantage of the teachers. I know full well how overworked teachers are and how much work it is organizing and leading one of these expeditions. It seems a pity that teachers should be overworked for something that imo has limited educational value. But then again, we take our children on many holidays (not necessarily expensive) and offer them the opportunities that these school holidays offer, but not all parents are able to do this.
I think family holidays of any type are a very important aspect of family life and shouldn't be sacrificed for anything a school might offer.

Agree with many here that the costs involved are outrageous.

However, the principle of school holidays is sound. From two sides of the picture I have seen enormous benefits - as a child it was a fantastic opportunity to escape my somewhat claustrophobic upbringing - broaden horizons - new challenges etc. (from simple things like sleeping in bunk beds, sweeping floors to pot-holing and midnight feasts). From a teacher's point of view, the amount of growing-up, maturing, that most of the children do during a week's school holiday is quite simply astonishing. The relationship between teacher and pupil, and between pupils, is enhanced. And a well run school trip will have many more academic educational benefits - usually in a geographical context.

I don't see the benefit of choosing to go abraod for the school trip, unless it is cheaper (may well be given how expensive British holidays are). I'm a little doubtful about the advantages of a skiing holiday too - seems a very expensive option. But a big thumbs up for school holidays and the teachers who enable them to happen.

an update!
no skiing trip as son doesnt want to go "Cos non of mi mates are"

and we havent sent the expression of interest form in for the twins to go - but if the rrest of the class are then we will pay for it

sorted!

thankie mumsnetters