The family of murderers

[Princessfuckingpeach]

Shit title, but couldn't think how else to word it.

I've been following closely current on going trial, I'm not say which one because the thread will be deleted.

Whilst this person in my opinion has committed the worst crimes possible, this person's family look broken.
Obviously my heart breaks for the victims families, that goes without saying.

Many years ago I was working next door to a family who's son committed a awful murder, the family weren't the nicest by any means, but also, not the worst.
I had words with the mum on a few occasions, but equally, I'd send her a Christmas card and she would think nothing of sending on of her kids over with a crispy cake if she'd made too many. (I worked as a carer for a gent who lived in the house).
Anyway her son brutally murdered a young woman. It crushed his whole family.
Before he was arrested, I'd see him regularly, he was actually just a bit older than me and most mornings I arrived at work I'd bump into him, smiley, good looking young fella, I often considered asking him for a drink, thankfully I didn't!

But my word, his mother, she was broken by what he'd done. I would see plain clothed officers often consoling her and once news broke, (high profile murder of a sex worker) the road became flooded with people the victim associated with poor victim, just crowding the murderers family home.
(He actually didn't live there when he committed the crime, he would start work early and still went to his mums for breakfast which is how I would see him often) but yeah, as devastating at it was for the family of his victim, seeing his mum, a fiesty, somewhat gobby, but ultimately kind woman, go into the broken shell she became, horrifying. Obviously they had to sell up and move. The crowds of sex workers and drug addicts who knew the victim were often wearing t shirts of her face and became extremely antisocial. (Smashed windows, the usual shebang)

As I say, my sympathy is obviously with the victim and their families. (I had a relative murdered by an infamous serial killer in the 90s, so please don't think I'm being flippant) but my heart does bleed for the families of killers.
It's just seeing how broken they are, it's crushing.

Does anyone else feel this way or am I just being a bit pathetic? I've my hard hat on, in case I am!

[LactoseTheIntolerant]

Yes I know what you mean. If its the trial I'm thinking of, which I'm following too, the parents seemed like they were nothing but loving towards the accused, it must be absolutely devastating for them.

[determinedtomakethiswork]

I think I remember a thread on here asking whether posters would go to court with their children in such a situation. I've been really shocked by how many of my friends say they wouldn't. Obviously your child has done the worst possible thing, if guilty, but I just don't think I could let them go there on their own. It would depend of course on the relationship beforehand, but in this case, the parents seem to have had a good relationship with the defendant. I can't imagine what they are going through.

[Hoppinggreen]

I often think this when there has been a school shooting or similar.
Of course the victims families should come first but often the shooter is dead too and his family have to deal with losing him in such awful circumstances but also with the hate of their community and the blame (usually for the mother)

[Soupsetscared]

One of my late fils friends son killed his own grandmother.
Fil friend had a breakdown his wife committed suicide.
The son was only given 20 years but served 12 for good behaviour.
This was over 30 years ago now.

[Princessfuckingpeach]

It's just all around so so upsetting isn't it?

It's a very interesting point made by @Hoppinggreen the mother is often vilified. But when aren't us evil women to blame 🙄
I watched a TED talk from a mother of one of the columbine shooters a while back, (its on YouTube still I think) and I prior to watching I had never given perpetrators parents any real thought.
I was reading something ages ago which was really interesting and sadly I can't find it, but in America I think it was something crazy such as (please note, this I'd said from memory and could be completely inaccurate and if anyone knows the actual figures please share) something such as 34 of the last female serial killers had been brought up or spent time in the care system. I read it when reading about the theory attachment in early years, so it wasn't something about killers.
So there is certainly something to be said about poor maternal relationships, but many millions of people grow up with terrible relationships with parents and manage to not kill a single person.

I think the first poster who knows the trial I've not been subtle about is right, this alleged killer seemingly has very kind parents.
I don't know how they'll ever recover from this, but I'm very heavy hearted for them today.

Again, (because mumsnet always has someone to shout at me) my sadness for them isn't overshadowing victims families, but I've definitely felt the need to give them a hug.

[Princessfuckingpeach]

@Soupsetscared

One of my late fils friends son killed his own grandmother.
Fil friend had a breakdown his wife committed suicide.
The son was only given 20 years but served 12 for good behaviour.
This was over 30 years ago now.

That's devastating to read! What a horrible, terrible thing for a family to have to deal with.
It's losses from every angle and I can't even process that 💔

My exH years ago and I were out and he ran into his old neighbour and asked after her DS, who he used to play out with during the 70s. This lady broke down, asked exH if he'd not heard? Her son had been put into prison for raping elderly women in their homes.
I forgot all about that until I read your post, but exH was very shaken and I remember being absolutely no use to the conversation. Not only was a young and a bit dim, but wtf do you say to that? Your son in his 20s is breaking into bungalows to rape elderly women. I just gave her a hug and said something stupid like, "I hope you will be ok".

[ditalini]

I agree. Their family are another set of victims very often.

[flyingtherag]

I think this is really interesting too.

Weirdly when I saw Saddam Hussain pulled out of that hole I just saw a vulnerable little old man.

It's like unless I see a crime being committed my brain can't comprehend it actually happen

[LemonJuiceFromConcentrate]

I often think about this too when I see news of upsetting crimes or trials. If you’d actually been a loving, good parent to a perpetrator I can’t even begin to imagine the burden you would carry for the rest of your life — every single day, waking up with it and living with it all day.

I think if it were me I would be lost for a long time. I would like to think I might be able to eventually crawl out from under my rock and start doing something that contributes to society — low-key volunteering or something. Not exactly as a penance, but to feel the slight comfort of knowing I was trying to restore some balance.

But realistically, I don’t know. Contributing to society as a volunteer requires strength and mental stability you just might not be able to find in those circs. Especially as you’d be ageing.

It’s no wonder it destroys people. What a devastating story @Soupsetscared

[LemonJuiceFromConcentrate]

God I’ve depressed myself with all that! I’ll need to go find a thread about something light

[NurseEssie]

My mum told me once in conversation about motherly love and how strong it is: '...look at him, he's a murderer, the whole world despises him, yes his mother is walking to him to prison carrying a flask of soup she's made for him!'

I was only a kid but felt such pity for this poor mother carrying food to her murderer son when everyone hated him to their bones.

(It was when a local guy we knew brutally murdered a young woman).

[Catmuffin]

I remember the press being absolutely vile about Harold Shipman's wife. Talking about her as if she was the lowest of the low, and saying where she lived. She would have had no way of knowing what he was doing. She'd have thought he was a lovely family doctor like everyone else did. Poor woman

[MichaelAndEagle]

I would stand by my child. I wouldn't try and cover up a crime and if I had to I would shop them myself.... but I would never cut ties, would visit, would always love them and would support them when they'd done their time.
I guess partly because I'd probably be blaming myself on some level for failing as a parent.
At least that is what I believe I'd do. Of course no one would really know for sure unless it happens to you.

[LakeTiticaca]

Murder crushes everyone involved. It's such an awful crime.
I don't know how the families of murdered children carry on yet somehow they do, and fight for new laws to be introduced, think Sara Payne, and Mairie McCourt, whose daughter Helens body has never been found

[MenoRageisReal]

@Soupsetscared

One of my late fils friends son killed his own grandmother.
Fil friend had a breakdown his wife committed suicide.
The son was only given 20 years but served 12 for good behaviour.
This was over 30 years ago now.

That is just so unbelievably awful and terribly sad.

I wonder how that killer feels, knowing the utter devastation he wrecked in his family. I imagine you'd have to be a true sociopath to be able to commit such a crime.

[Wasley]

@Catmuffin

I remember the press being absolutely vile about Harold Shipman's wife. Talking about her as if she was the lowest of the low, and saying where she lived. She would have had no way of knowing what he was doing. She'd have thought he was a lovely family doctor like everyone else did. Poor woman

Agreed and she can't even move and change her name .

[Wasley]

@LemonJuiceFromConcentrate

I often think about this too when I see news of upsetting crimes or trials. If you’d actually been a loving, good parent to a perpetrator I can’t even begin to imagine the burden you would carry for the rest of your life — every single day, waking up with it and living with it all day.

I think if it were me I would be lost for a long time. I would like to think I might be able to eventually crawl out from under my rock and start doing something that contributes to society — low-key volunteering or something. Not exactly as a penance, but to feel the slight comfort of knowing I was trying to restore some balance.

But realistically, I don’t know. Contributing to society as a volunteer requires strength and mental stability you just might not be able to find in those circs. Especially as you’d be ageing.

It’s no wonder it destroys people. What a devastating story @Soupsetscared

I think I would wait for everything to die down then change my name and move . Start again .

[MenoRageisReal]

@LakeTiticaca

Murder crushes everyone involved. It's such an awful crime.
I don't know how the families of murdered children carry on yet somehow they do, and fight for new laws to be introduced, think Sara Payne, and Mairie McCourt, whose daughter Helens body has never been found

And the families of the Sandy Hook victims in the US who still campaign for an end to gun violence. They are so strong to do this in the face of all those accusations of it being "made up/they were actors" etc.

[Highandlows]

I see what you mean. Never thought about it but yes it must be terrible if the family is blameless and kind. In a way is like they also lost a son or daughter.

[MichaelAndEagle]

One thing I heard about the mother of one of the columbine shooters was she'd thought just that morning that there was something up with her son and said to herself she'd make some time to chat to him that night.
And that was the day they went and did what they did ....
Terrible.

[Princessfuckingpeach]

@MenoRageisReal

And the families of the Sandy Hook victims in the US who still campaign for an end to gun violence. They are so strong to do this in the face of all those accusations of it being "made up/they were actors" etc.

That massive prick Alex Jones should have been put in jail for all that fuckery he did!

[TattiePants]

I’d highly recommend reading A Mother’s Reckoning by Sue Klebold, the mother of Dylan Klebold, one of the Columbine school shootings killers mentioned above.

Just before I left school, a pupil in my year was arrested for the murder of a younger boy. He came from a good family and his parents were completely broken by it. He was released some months later and it took another 20 years before the real murderer was convicted but the family had to move from the area and their lives were devastated.

[Elliania]

I'm old enough to remember coverage of one of the most infamous school shootings in America being broadcaast live on the news (Columbine) and I followed the news about it for a long time. The hatred towards the parents of the killers, while I understand it, was intense. I read a book about the case & there was a piece about the family of one of the killers coming to a local priest & being so desperate because they needed a funeral for their son. So the whole thing had to be done so quietly - and they couldn't bury him. Because they were concerned that the gravesite would be vandalised.
One of the mothers now gives talks about school shootings and her experience - and it actually broke my heart. She seemed like such a good person who feels so much grief and guilt. And she says she gets asked so often "Did you see any warning signs?" and she says no. She saw nothing like this in her son that suggested he was capable of killing people.

[MrsSkylerWhite]

I always feel great sympathy for families, would imagine most people do?

[Elliania]

@MrsSkylerWhite

I always feel great sympathy for families, would imagine most people do?

It depends on a case by case basis IMO. Some families don't see anything coming and are just broken. Some see warning signs, ignore them and are grief stricked afterwards. Some refuse to believe that their child could do anything wrong & some even cover up for their child. Look at the case of Gabby Petito - she was murdered by her fiance and his parents did EVERYTHING they could to stall the investigation even with the suspicion that they knew he'd killed her before her body was found.