The Novelry, and I'm getting in a tangle.

[WonderfulCheese]

I have two questions which might be linked.

I've been writing the story I've had in my heart for twenty maddening years. I really believe in it, but I'm in a tangle.

I've got about 100k words. It's probably a cross over book: adventureish theme but doesn't talk to the reader in a young way, so I'm not honestly sure where to categorize it (the bin??)

100k might well be overlong but it can of course be trimmed.

The problem is I need to read the whole thing each time I start up with it. Which now takes ages. I'm utterly lost. There is a gap where the final battle/climax should be. For some reason as I read and try to make notes, I can't manage to out together a coherent summary. Is this normal? What's wrong with me 😂

My second question then is, I was thinking about doing a course of some kind to get it over the line. I always dreamt of an MA but they are now utterly out of reach. As a straight, white female there are very few bursaries as many target under represented groups.

So, just recently facebook has shown me an ad for The Novelry. My question is, has anyone any experience with this? It seems to promise that if you pay the fee and do the work you have a 60% chance of being published. The question that jumped to mind was immediately, how can they claim that, what if you just haven't got what it takes?

I also saw an advert for something called "immersed in story". But I'm really wary of all of these Facebook adverts. Does anyone have any experience of that one?

Thank you very much.

Awesome advice, thank you :-)

I tried using notecards on Scrivener. Failed. I'll try your idea, it sounds a lot more tangible.

I find Scrivener is great in theory but there comes a point where you need it all laid out at a glance on something way bigger than a screen!

there are no references to the colour of anyone's skin, or their sexual preference, or blended families

Wow. It sounds like you're writing for quite a... niche market if that's the most important thing you think you can say about your novel.

I see the point you're trying to make, but it's not very neatly executed. Niche market? People who are more interested in the story itself than the sexual preferences of the fictional, child characters. Likewise, the family is not blended because as I said, the parents are dead. There's nothing to blend.

But the overriding truth is that the story is unpublished, and statistically speaking, is likely to remain so, so if the readership remains where it is right now - me and me alone - then yes, I suppose that's very niche.

Yes, why oh why would anyone want to hear about annoying irrelevancies like people’s race or sexuality in a story?

“As a straight, white female”, stories should just be stories, right.

Uhh I don't know what to answer you. If you're looking for that kind of story, there are a lot out there to choose from.

A story where characters have sexualities and skin colours? Yes, most stories are like this, from Snow White to Star Wars to Sense and Sensibility.

Hi all

I've been with the Novelry for a while.

As regards the 60% they mean that of the number of manuscripts they submit to their partner agents (a small amount each year ) 60% are a success. The reality is that you have to be good for them to submit you to their agents. Just like you'd have to be to get an agent in the real world.

So it's the same as anywhere except that by using the Novelry submission service you're not on the slush pile and it's a bespoke application.

I looked at the website. I didn't read it to mean I'd have 60% chance at getting an agent but the new website does make it look like it's going to be straightforward and easy. But you can have frank discussions on the phone with them or via email about your concerns without having to join.

I hope that helps.

Sorry for the late reply to this. I'm with the Novelry. Have been for over a year. The idea that the majority of people with them get published is a big lie I'm afraid. There are people who've been with them for years and not got anything published at all. I'd say it's a novel writing course more than anything else. If you have the money to spend go for it but the chances of being published through them are not that high.

Thanks Petula. Did you find it was a good course, in terms of teaching you to write or improve your novel?

I'm a 'pantser' writer - I've never plotted a novel out in detail – but the one thing I must have before writing is have the ending already in my head, because then I am writing towards that moment. I tend to use the Hero's Journey (or similar) plot outline once I get started, but initially I like the 'Marathon' system where you break the story down into five points.

1. Sign up for the race (protagonists call to action, before it begins...)
2. At the starting line line, gun goes off (protagonist committed to act..)
3. Mid-point - major milestone in the events
4. Hitting the 'wall' - sheer willpower (protagonist spurred on with new strength, end in sight)
5. Finish line in sight (final desperate struggle)

It's simple and doesnt need too much faffing about and it covers a lot of genres! You might find it also helps breaking your novel down into chunks and 'bullet pointing' the main events so you know where to go next. (Index cards are your friend here!)

I think the Novelry course was pretty good. The best thing was the community. There are lots of writers going through the same thing as you. You'll find that the demographic of teachers there is very middle class and mostly female. Lots of writers, ex editors etc. You get some feedback on your writing but not as much as if you were doing a proper creative writing course. It costs about £150 a month so not cheap. They also encourage you to do extra feedback sessions which cost extra. Would I do it again? Probably. Does it get you published? Probably not.

I think the Novelry course was pretty good. The best thing was the community. There are lots of writers going through the same thing as you. You'll find that the demographic of teachers there is very middle class and mostly female. Lots of writers, ex editors etc. You get some feedback on your writing but not as much as if you were doing a proper creative writing course. It costs about £150 a month so not cheap. They also encourage you to do extra feedback sessions which cost extra. Would I do it again? Probably. Does it get you published? Probably not.

I was with the Novelry two years, there are pros and cons.
Pros:

• Being part of a community of writers, I met other writers I'm still in touch with now
• Many zoom events, writers talking about their process, group 'surgeries' where you can get help with an issue etc, this teaches you a lot
• Option for them to submit to an agent on your behalf so you avoid the slush pile - BUT they have to agree your MS is ready for this so not in your control whether it happens or not
• Professional editors if you choose the Big Edit course or a manuscript feedback service

Cons:

• Expensive
• The courses are quite bloated and feel a unstructured, lots of useful material but all a bit waffley and overwhelming. I prefer the CBC online courses, much more structured and sense-making.
• Author tutors vary in quality, all are lovely but are not professional editors or book coaches, yes they have written books, but coaching someone else to write one is a totally different skill
• While being coached by author tutors nobody looks at your material so you can go quite far in the wrong direction before you get meaningful help from the editors

Oh and one last con - when you buy a course you don't get lifetime access and it can get v expensive if you keep needing to rollover your course if things didn't pan out as you expected and you need more time.

Also I agree with a PP who said put down your timeline somewhere. I use Miro - an online tool where you can do little boxes. I've put in all the structure items from Save the Cat and John Yorke books into my boxes and then I put boxes below these that show the matching parts of my novel. It's working v well as a tool to help me make a chapter plan for the second draft.

One final thing I should mention about the Novelry which others have also mentioned. The implication in their advertising is they will submit to agents on your behalf. However, the reality is very different. Only a tiny proportion of people's manuscripts are submitted if they think you are good enough. But this is just their opinion. Just because you are not writing in the way that they like it doesn't mean that you are not a good writer. Don't lose hope.

Hi @Petula1977 I've just read this thread with interest as I was just about to sign up to the Novelry but thought I'd do a little more digging before I part with my cash!

Please may I ask — which of their courses did you do? :)

Hi I did the 90 day novel and the big edit. They try to encourage you to do the other ones too but I couldn't afford more than those two.

Thanks so much @Petula1977 — that's really helpful. Thank you!

John Yorke also runs writing courses based on his book, Into the Woods

John Yorke also runs accredited writing courses based on his book, Into the Woods

Might be worth looking at Professional Writing Academy too - cheaper writing courses

Hi just to add my 2 pence worth,
I agree with Petula and Camembert 100% and think that the Novelry's marketing should be made a bit clearer so that new writers understand the realities of getting an agent and how much work they need to put into writing a strong novel and that writing a publishable novel in a year is unrealistic for a large proportion of their writers and that the Novelry cannot guarantee the quality of the novels the writers produce.

But there are also writers there who pay to write for fun or can afford to shell out loads of money as it's cheaper than many US courses.

It's true, the Novelry don't do any quality checks before you pay up so you have to be the judge of your own writing. And I'm not sure how they feedback to writers who aren't very good. I don't know if they ever say, I think you're wasting your money. I don't know. I hope so but from what I see there are a lot of writers whose work isn't very good posted up on the boards for feedback. But maybe the good writers don't need to look for peer feedback as they already have that infrastructure in place.

However, if you're a good writer, the Novelry is a good place for you and the Big Edit is value for money even if you don't get onto the submission service. The notes are very detailed and substantial and you can apply them to the rest of your manuscript.

I did the 90 day and the big edit with the Novelry, was invited onto their submission service and have recently signed with a top agency after receiving multiple offers. I know two other writers personally who signed with top agents having received multiple offers, one who subsequently got a 6 fig deal.

A good writer friend also received an offer of rep. They didn't do their submission service but up until then they couldn't get an agent until after the Novelry helped them with their submission package.

Therefore, I recommend the Novelry to my writer friends who are strong writers and need help with creating a more commercial story. I DO NOT recommend the Novelry to writers who struggle with the fundamentals of writing or are wedded to stories which are not marketable. I think it's a waste of money. Saying that the workshops are good and I am constantly learning.

All the writers I know who have got agents still want to stay with the Novelry cos they like the teaching. I can't speak for every tutor and I cannot speak for writers who struggle with too many aspects of craft or do not realise that they struggle with too many aspects of craft.

I have worked personally with John Yorke many years ago. His 5 act structure is excellent and I use it but his book is enough. I wouldn't advise anyone pay for a course.

Hope this is useful and good luck.

@WonderfulCheese I see this Thread has been revived. How are you and how are you progressing, any closer to your end point?