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Eight submissions and two form rejections so far

43 replies

GiveYourHeadAWobble · 05/07/2023 12:38

I submitted to eight agents early last week and so far have had two form rejections.
I was expecting rejections, but the standard form rejections have thrown me a bit. I really thought I'd get more personalised, encouraging rejections, not the "don't give up the day job" vibes that I get from these form rejections.
Ugh!
Has anyone else been in the same situation and, if so, what came of it?

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Rinaldathewriter · 14/07/2023 14:37

Ugh another rejection today! Literally just ‘thanks but we’ll pass’. Trying to get used to it but you do die a little inside….

InfiniteTeas · 14/07/2023 17:31

Recent namechange here, but I've been posting on the CW forum for years. Submitting is really, really tough, and the lack of feedback is a killer, but it does help if you keep reminding yourself that it's a business. There's been a lot of criticism of agents on Twitter etc recently, a good deal of it around lack of responses/lack of feedback/lack of transparency, and while some of it is fair - the 'no response means no' thing that's crept in since 2020 is soul-destroying for writers, and makes the whole process even more difficult - some of the people being very vocal about agents have some seriously unrealistic expectations, which would involve the whole industry changing into something very different, which would immediately fail financially.

I've been through the submissions process twice - once with my first novel, and once with what will be my second published novel after deciding to leave my original agent, and I've talked to a lot of agents about the process. It's difficult to get your head around the numbers of submissions they receive - 400 in a week would be fairly standard - and, as a previous poster said, reading subs isn't the only, or even main, part of their job. You'd think it would be easy to tailor responses slightly, but even having a selection of form rejections to pick from would involve extra time per submission, and that adds up really quickly. The response times are already ridiculous, and anything that adds time is just going to stretch them out even further. There's also the fact that personalised feedback can open the agent up to the writer arguing the toss and sometimes getting nasty. I think the result of some of the recent anti-agent sentiment will be even more form rejections, so that they don't say anything that someone can latch onto and plaster all over Twitter.

Part of the problem is that writing a book is such a big undertaking that you don't start it unless you love writing and believe in your project. You pour your heart and soul into it, and then you send it out to people who reject it out of hand and never tell you why. But with most first novels, they're written alongside another job, or while being a SAHM or whatever your main life circumstances are. They're not paying the bills. But you then send it someone for whom this is their job. There's inevitably going to be a big gulf between the way authors feel about their project and the way agents view it, as one of thousands landing in their inbox.

Form rejections are so frustrating, because they can mean anything from 'This is the worst thing I've ever read. Your name is forever branded on my brain - and not in a remotely good way' to 'This looks pretty good, but it's not really my thing.' But personalised feedback in a rejection is so rare that you pretty much need to forget about getting it from agents. A few suggestions that may or may not help, as I'm in the process of writing a piece for my website on this topic - disregard if any of it is too basic:

Have you done enough editing? I usually do one big structural edit, another run through to fine-tune plot etc, a 'making it pretty' edit when I play around at a sentence level and start polishing up the theme etc, a copy edit/proofread type run through, and then a length edit as I tend to write long and have to come down. People are investing in their writing more than in the past, so some manuscripts are going to have been through a paid edit before going out on submission. You need to make sure yours is as polished and professional as possible.

Is your opening gripping? If you're looking at your submission and thinking 'I wish I had more than 50 pages as the really good bit is at page 63' or similar, you're probably starting in the wrong place. Agents are so busy that they're not going to hang on in there to see if it gets better.

Is your submission letter selling your work effectively? What I found very interesting was that when I was subbing as an already published writer, I got a lot of very fast responses - one in less than an hour - suggesting that agents keep an eye on their incoming emails and jump straight to anything that catches their attention. If your letter makes your project sound compelling, you might well jump the queue. Have a look at Juliet Mushen's website - there's an example of a really good query letter on there. I used an adapted version of it with good results. The format I used (minus the bit about my previous novel) was a very simple opening - 'I am seeking rep for my new novel, Title.' Then a paragraph saying what kind of novel it is, with a brief summary of the key points - this is the bit that needs to jump out - followed by 'I would position it along side [two comp titles]' and a single sentence about some the inspiration. Third paragraph gave a bit more detail about the plot - still very brief. Then a paragraph about me and my writing history, a quick mention of other projects in the pipeline, and then 'I attach the opening chapters and a synopsis and look forward to hearing from you.' Nothing fancy - factual and business-like.

Can you spot a form rejection? Writers sometimes latch onto the positives in a response, and take them as an indicator that they're on the right track, when they're actually part of a nice form rejection. Watch out for generic things like 'Although your submission was intriguing...' or 'I enjoyed reading your work...' or 'Although there is much to admire in your writing...' Personalised feedback will be very clearly...well, personalised.

Submit in fairly small batches. You don't want to send it to every agent on your list, only to realise when it's too late that there's something fixable letting your project down, because agents generally won't revisit something unless they've specifically invited you to revise and resubmit. Keep reviewing it. If you get 10 form rejections from 10 submissions, it might be worth pausing and seeing if you can get feedback on your submission package.

Re feedback - yes, it's hard to get quality feedback, but there are ways to do this without paying a lot of money for it. There are various facebook groups for beta readers, manuscript swaps etc. There are a couple of facebook groups that will critique your submission letter. I don't know how many writing forums are still going - I got my first ever feedback from a group on the old WriteWords forum, and it was invaluable. Try to find a local writing group, or start one of your own, either in-person or online. If you do have some money to spend, spend it wisely. Don't jump straight into an expensive edit or assessment before you've got some other feedback. In the early stages of writing/submitting, I personally think that any money is better spent on learning the craft rather than paying someone to polish your work. Look for courses/classes/workshops/mentoring etc. You just need some indication of where you are and where any weaknesses might be.

Read about psychic distance if you haven't already learned about this - it's a game changer in terms of writing quality!

I don't know if any of that is remotely useful - it's probably a long-winded way of saying that if you can remove the need for feedback from the submissions process, the whole thing becomes a bit less painful. Best of luck with it all - fingers crossed for a flood of full requests very soon!

Curioushorse · 14/07/2023 17:37

Ha ha. Good luck!

I'm being ghosted after three full manuscript requests! Have literally heard nothing back from the agents who requested the whole thing - which makes it tricky to know whether to send out more. I mean, I assume they aren't interested at this stage (several months)- but I'm surprised they haven't bothered to send an email to say.

cingolimama · 14/07/2023 17:49

Look, I'm very sympathetic, and I know how difficult it is to get an agent and to get the right one for you.

But could I turn this around for a moment? You say you got a "form rejection". However, it sounds like you sent out a bunch of form letters to agents, which is a no-no. An agent wants to know why you approached them - what is it about them or their agency that makes you want them to represent you. Why do you think they a good fit? This requires a little research, but it's worth it - perhaps they represent a writer you particularly admire, perhaps they have a track record in a particular genre, perhaps you recently read something they represented etc. My advice is to personalise your letter, and send them out one at a time, rather than scatter gunning query letters. It's the serious, professional approach.

Good luck!

GiveYourHeadAWobble · 14/07/2023 20:45

@LondonWritingSchool That's really nice that you ended up self-publishing and that people can enjoy your book. It's good that it's 'out there' for people to read.

@ReadRum Good luck! Yes, the form rejections are obvious and they do feel a bit brutal! I think a personalised rejection would at least feel more encouraging.

@Chocolateatanyio Thank you! Can you remember how many agents you sent your work to? Would you ever self publish?

@HermeticDawn Goodness, I didn't realise most agents have to wade through a lot of submissions in their spare time. 1000 submissions a month is quite something.

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GiveYourHeadAWobble · 14/07/2023 21:11

@Rinaldathewriter I'm sorry you had a rejection today. I did too! Good luck. Hopefully someone will take notice of your work soon.

@InfiniteTeas That's really interesting that agents are being criticised on Twitter. I'm glad that people are speaking out. I've submitted to a couple of agencies who ask for three recent book comparisons, and although I've added comparisons I feel it's not a fair request (even though I did include comparisons).
400 submissions in a week is an incredible number.
Yes, absolutely, we all have enough self belief to put heart and soul and years into our projects!
I have edited my book a number of times and I believe it's quite polished, although I could be totally deluded in thinking this!
It's possible that the opening of my book isn't gripping. That is food for thought.
I really appreciate your post and I will read it and reread it many times, taking everything you've said into account. I really appreciate it, and congratulations on being published!

@Curioushorse That's tough, although it's actually very reassuring that you're getting full manuscript requests! Hopefully it'll get somewhere!

@cingolimama Thanks! I'm not sure how I gave the impression that I sent form letters to agents though. I spent a lot of time on my query letters and followed all the instructions given, which were slightly different with each agency. In about half of my queries I did the whole "I'm choosing you because" thing. From now on I'll make sure I do that with every single query!

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InfiniteTeas · 14/07/2023 23:08

'I've submitted to a couple of agencies who ask for three recent book comparisons, and although I've added comparisons I feel it's not a fair request (even though I did include comparisons).'

Comp titles are a pretty standard part of a submission - to agents, or from agents to editors. They're a quick reference point, so an agent knows broadly what type of book your pitching. You should always have them in a submission letter if you can possibly come up with some. You usually have two or three, and one or two should be recent - any older comp should be very well known. You can use film/tv if necessary, but I'd make sure you have at least one book. I used two books for my current book - one was a few years old but well known, and one was recent. When my agent pitched it, she used the same two books and a film. Comp titles don't necessarily have to be similar in plot - theme or general tone is fine.

InfiniteTeas · 15/07/2023 08:22

By coincidence, this popped up on Twitter this morning, from a US agent.

Eight submissions and two form rejections so far
ReadRum · 18/07/2023 12:13

Had my first form rejection yesterday evening. Another 11 queries are outstanding. Hoping to get a bit quicker in sending them as by now I surely have all the possible lengths of pages and chapters saved in separate files.

GiveYourHeadAWobble · 23/07/2023 11:55

InfiniteTeas · 14/07/2023 23:08

'I've submitted to a couple of agencies who ask for three recent book comparisons, and although I've added comparisons I feel it's not a fair request (even though I did include comparisons).'

Comp titles are a pretty standard part of a submission - to agents, or from agents to editors. They're a quick reference point, so an agent knows broadly what type of book your pitching. You should always have them in a submission letter if you can possibly come up with some. You usually have two or three, and one or two should be recent - any older comp should be very well known. You can use film/tv if necessary, but I'd make sure you have at least one book. I used two books for my current book - one was a few years old but well known, and one was recent. When my agent pitched it, she used the same two books and a film. Comp titles don't necessarily have to be similar in plot - theme or general tone is fine.

Thank you, Teas. Sorry it's taken me so long to respond to your post. Would you recommend including comps in cover letters even when they're not asked for?

Well done for getting an agent! Did you get many rejections or did you get an agent quite quickly?

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GiveYourHeadAWobble · 23/07/2023 11:56

ReadRum · 18/07/2023 12:13

Had my first form rejection yesterday evening. Another 11 queries are outstanding. Hoping to get a bit quicker in sending them as by now I surely have all the possible lengths of pages and chapters saved in separate files.

Keep going, and good luck with your other queries. Have you heard anything else yet? I've just sent off some more submissions. It's quite time-consuming.

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InfiniteTeas · 24/07/2023 17:34

Yes, I'd always include comp titles. I'd say they're one of the vital elements of the submission package.

Juliet Mushens has a helpful article - https://www.mushens-entertainment.com/blog/the-perfect-cover-letter - on cover letters on her website. Annoyingly, the link to Jessie Burton's letter doesn't work anymore, but it's here, albeit in a broken down form - https://medium.com/galleys/dear-juliet-fd74222bf9be

I took a bit of a non-standard route to my current agent. I did some initial subs with my first book before realising fairly quickly that it wasn't up to scratch. I reworked it and it won a competition, leading to an offer of rep which I accepted. I was with that agent for quite a while, before becoming unhappy with the way things were going. I left, then did quite a big round of submissions, flagging up clearly in the email header that I was looking for new representation, which seemed to bump my submission up the list as most of the responses were quick. I had four offers, narrowed it down to two and did as much homework as I could before making a decision. I went for a very editorial, hands-on agent, and for someone mid-career, rather than a huge name, with dozens of high profile clients. Seems to be working out well so far!

The Perfect Cover Letter — Mushens Entertainment

Juliet Mushens highlights what she looking for in a submission cover letter. For more information about submitting to Mushens Entertainment, see our submissions page.

https://www.mushens-entertainment.com/blog/the-perfect-cover-letter

ReadRum · 24/07/2023 22:26

GiveYourHeadAWobble · 23/07/2023 11:56

Keep going, and good luck with your other queries. Have you heard anything else yet? I've just sent off some more submissions. It's quite time-consuming.

30ish queries, 3 form rejections, nothing else after 2 weeks.

BecauseOfIndia · 25/07/2023 07:59

@ReadRum I would slow things down a bit, I've been querying on and off for nearly two years and haven't sent out as many as you have! I think you will regret it later on as once you've submitted to an agent and been rejected you can't submit that same novel to them again, even if it's undergone a major revision.

What genre are you writing in? And has it been read by a good range of beta readers? Particularly people who don't know you very well as they are more likely to be honest.

I'm saying all this because when I started querying I sent out 12 subs (to some of the top agents - including Mushens😭) but when I eventually got my first full ms request the agents feedback was extensive - resulting in me spending a year totally rewriting and redrafting. I can see now just how right he was and I regret sending those early subs.

GiveYourHeadAWobble · 26/07/2023 14:45

@InfiniteTeas Congratulations on your success! That is very inspiring and it gives me hope. Jessie Burton's cover letter is very elaborate, and very different to mine (which is probably a bit boring and may need to be re-written).

@ReadRum I'm now on 20 queries. If I don't have any interest after these I will be tempted to pay someone to read through and give feedback on my work, cover letter and synopsis. I'm not sure if this is a waste of money, but I have noticed companies that offer this service.

@BecauseOfIndia Do you know if agents keep a record of queries? I would be tempted to submit to the same agents in future anyway, and hope they don't notice.

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nopuppiesallowed · 26/07/2023 15:09

Until Covid (and flipping) Long Covid, I wrote a few MG novels similar to Famous Five adventures, but with mobile phones and working / single mothers and an occasional dragon. After numerous submissions, I was asked by 2 agents for the full mss of one book. You could have heard the screams of excitement from outer space. Both agents asked for different changes - then it was rejected by both. I was unbelievably discouraged by this and haven't written anything since. OP - you have given MY head a wobble! I need to put my sorry butt in gear and get back to my lap top. I can't do fast walks anymore, but I could write again.... Thank you for giving me the impetus.

GiveYourHeadAWobble · 03/08/2023 12:21

@Snippysocks I'm so glad you've been inspired to get back to your laptop. If you've been asked for the full manuscript then there is potential there. The agents see something in your work, and that is really reassuring!

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nopuppiesallowed · 03/08/2023 13:27

Thank you!

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