If you like literary fiction can you tell me gently what you think?

[LitCrit]

Hello everyone
I'm at the very early stages of mapping out a lit fic novel, and in order to try and get myself ready I thought I'd join Marian Keyes' instagram writing challenge. I've written 700 words following one of her first line prompts, and not thinking too much or editing too heavily.

I'm really struggling to see what I've written with any objectivity, and particularly about whether it feels authentic, or whether it's too self-conscious even in the context of literary fiction. I am quite wordy and self-consciously thinky naturally, and I think it's probably best not to fight that too much (I will never be Raymond sodding Carver however hard I try) - but is it too much?

I've put it on a Google doc - not sure if that's the best way, happy to follow the protocol if someone can let me know.
Also very much hoping that I've managed to detach the google doc from my real name etc... please tell me if I've failed (quickly!)

Thanks very much.

Gnnnn yes. Dammit. I know this is good advice. I’m going to try another exercise today with all h to is in mind.

Also, and maybe this is me being a Philistine, the Sickert nose.

The context has helped me vaguely recognise the name as the creator of some kind of visual art, but that's it. Only use it if you want the general reader to get a particular image of your narrator's mind.

Yes. And annoyingly I meant Sitwell which is even more intrusive

For instance, the Rolodex image sticks out in a way that pulls me out of the writing as a reader

Absolutely.

And the Sickert nose agreed...I chopped that out mentally. It's a weird expression.

Ok - I agree it doesn’t work. But do you mean that all writing has to be, erm, non-weird? Do you have to never notice the words if you seee what I mean? I often like peoples odd use of language. I tho k.

I’m a writer too, though not literary.
If that’s your opening chapter it’s very wordy and confusing, as others have said.
You do write well and know how to use words - BUT you also have to get the story going.
The days of novelists taking five chapters to start the story are over.
Get to the point. What are we reading about here?
Once you have sucked us in, you can then gradually become more wordy because once we’re invested in the CHARACTERS and the STORY we’ll enjoy it. (Though don’t get so carried away again with fancy writing that you ramble away from the point).
Best of luck - been there🙂

@LitCrit

Ok - I agree it doesn’t work. But do you mean that all writing has to be, erm, non-weird? Do you have to never notice the words if you seee what I mean? I often like peoples odd use of language. I tho k.

No, but I think in that particular instance that mage stuck out because it simply wasn’t clear who the POV character was — her age, background, situation, location etc — so the Rolodex loomed distractingly-large, because it was the only concrete thing the reader had.

Style is important to me, but it still needs to contribute to and work with character. One of the POV characters in the novel I’m writing is very much attuned to landscape, but as she’s local and works on the land, the way she thinks about it — and the language I use for that — is going to be different to that of a visiting tourist who doesn’t know the names of all the mountains and get a living from a farm, even if they’re both registering beauty.

Do you see what mean?

@Coronawireless

I’m a writer too, though not literary. If that’s your opening chapter it’s very wordy and confusing, as others have said. You do write well and know how to use words - BUT you also have to get the story going. The days of novelists taking five chapters to start the story are over. Get to the point. What are we reading about here? Once you have sucked us in, you can then gradually become more wordy because once we’re invested in the CHARACTERS and the STORY we’ll enjoy it. (Though don’t get so carried away again with fancy writing that you ramble away from the point). Best of luck - been there🙂

Definitely not. I have phrases and words which I remember from particular novels and that's fine. But there's a difference between writing well and writing for the sake of it.

Too many words, no movement. I would not feel confident that the writer has the ability to tell a story.

well, I like it, in that I wnat to know more.

But as a beginning, you are not giving me enough, it feels as if each thing will be drawn out liek blood from a stone.
You need to drop more nuggets of information in here, and save some of the angst for later!

I got a good tip once...if you really like the sound of a sentence or a word, cut it out...if you're relishing it and reading it back and patting yourself on the back...then 9 times out of 10 it needs removing

Oh god - I couldn't disagree with that more! (And I'm a published writer)

@PrawnCorset I DO see -and that's all so very helpful. It's really odd - I know all this really, but I just can't see my own writing yet.

Also, although my degree was Eng Lit and I should be able to immediately see style and structural stuff, I ignored that side of things and always focused on a social critique (Critical Theory was ascendant, and Christ, look where that got us ;-) ) and skipped what then seemed to be pedestrian literary analysis. I'm bitterly regretting it now, clearly .

"Once you have sucked us in, you can then gradually become more wordy because once we’re invested in the CHARACTERS and the STORY we’ll enjoy it. (Though don’t get so carried away again with fancy writing that you ramble away from the point)."

@Coronawireless that is so simply put and has absolutely hit home. Of course! and @TheYearOfSmallThings 's point adds to that the idea of fostering confidence in the reader, which I hand't really considered before, and @steppemum says something similar about how information builds confidence.
This is all so helpful, and interesting. Thank you, I'm really impressed with all your clear-sightedness.

@Time40 Oh Eeenteresting. Can you expand at all? Are you writing lit fiction?

Time40 Oh Eeenteresting. Can you expand at all? Are you writing lit fiction?

Yes, I've published lit fiction. As to expanding ... gosh, that's difficult! Perhaps it's something to do with experience?? Because I've got quite a lot of experience, I know when a line that seems good to me really is good?

I must say, I have always understood the phrase "kill your darlings" to mean being prepared to cut out things one loves not because one loves them, but because they do not work in that particular place in the story - for instance, having written a really great, very funny exchange between two characters, but having to cut it because it slows the action down too much, etc, etc.

@Time40

Time40 Oh Eeenteresting. Can you expand at all? Are you writing lit fiction?

Yes, I've published lit fiction. As to expanding ... gosh, that's difficult! Perhaps it's something to do with experience?? Because I've got quite a lot of experience, I know when a line that seems good to me really is good?

I must say, I have always understood the phrase "kill your darlings" to mean being prepared to cut out things one loves not because one loves them, but because they do not work in that particular place in the story - for instance, having written a really great, very funny exchange between two characters, but having to cut it because it slows the action down too much, etc, etc.

I think it's that, but often the fact that one is particularly impressed with something means being more reluctant to recognise it's not earning its keep, or taking it out and shoehorning it in somewhere else, regardless.

I once had a creative writing student take out a bit of smart dialogue based on workshop feedback and then, in the submitted work, he had added an entire extraneous battle scene purely, as far as I could see, so that a different pair of characters could have this exchange.

And it's certainly not just students -- I can think of well-regarded literary fiction where the author simply couldn't resist putting in all his research, even where it made entire sections of the novel ponderous.

I think perhaps it’s difference between killing your darling and taking it’s dearness as a sign that one should keep a closer eye on it than all your other, average-ability children.
On which note @Time40 if it’s not too intrusive can I ask if you were born fully-formed as a novelist, or did you need to learn? I’m mulling a creative writing MA but I’m torn - I think it would be deeply interesting, but bcs of the cost I’m wondering whether I might reach the same level by blundering forward alone, being prepared to keep hitting painful walls. @PrawnCorset what do you think too - it sounds as though you teach one? It would be amazing to hear what you felt it’s strengths and weaknesses are.

Not an MA -- I used to teach fiction modules on a joint degree in English and creative writing, literary fiction not generally generating a living income. I've never done any form of writing qualification of any kind myself. I just wrote a novel, sent it around a few agents, had offers from two, signed with one. That novel didn't sell, but the next one did.

Christ @PrawnCorset that’s impressive. Two agents. Having had experience of both roads, (creative writing course, going it alone) what would you do if you were me ?

Just to add - Because of the timing I have the option of applying and perhaps being accepted , and then seeing how I do with the novel whose plot,setting and milieu I have roughed out already before handing over the massive cheque.
That’s made me remember that the writing prompt I started with wasn’t supposed to be an opening chapter and I don’t think I was thinking of it as such when I started - I just took it from that line and ran. Either way in the plan I have roughed out the first chapter is not nearly so oppressively dense phew

Setting and characters, not milieu

Too wordy and that makes it appear contrived

Either: simple plot and more in terms of wordiness

Or

Confusing and random plot lines but tighter working

Both together makes it quite muddy

I think you’re great going for it!

Too many words, no movement. I would not feel confident that the writer has the ability to tell a story.
Completely agree with this.

@LitCrit

Christ *@PrawnCorset* that’s impressive. Two agents. Having had experience of both roads, (creative writing course, going it alone) what would you do if you were me ?

Honestly, not impressive, @LitCrit -- that book still didn't sell!

Genuinely, I have no advice about MAs, as I've no experience of them myself -- I do know quite a few people who teach on them at UK and Irish universities, but the only writers I know who did an MA themselves are two older people who did the UEA MA back in Malcolm Bradbury/Angela Carter's day, when creative writing at universities was a very different world.

(A couple of people I know who are doing PhDs in creative writing at the moment already have a couple of novels out, and are doing doctorates chiefly to be able to teach at universities.)

From what I gather from friends who teach on MAs, some students, despite paying hefty fees, are still quite disengaged and flaky about getting in work to be workshopped etc, and some really don't see the point in reading, which is what you will be doing a lot.

I imagine a lot will depend on your individual cohort, how committed they are, and what genres the other people are working in -- if a lot of the rest are writing, say, sci-fi or hardboiled crime, and you're writing sort of post-Margaret Drabble Hampsteady lit fic. it might be a wonderful learning curve or very isolating...? They do obviously try to mix things up when they are accepting applications, but I'm not sure it always works.

Time40 if it’s not too intrusive can I ask if you were born fully-formed as a novelist, or did you need to learn? I’m mulling a creative writing MA but I’m torn - I think it would be deeply interesting, but bcs of the cost I’m wondering whether I might reach the same level by blundering forward alone, being prepared to keep hitting painful walls

I'm mainly a short story writer, actually. I never did any formal learning, but I have done a vast amount of reading, both of fiction and of books about writing. I've also spent a lot of time giving and receiving feedback on work, which I think has a huge effect on the development of one's writing.

On the subject of MAs ... there are far more of them than there used to be. During my lifetime, teaching creative writing has turned into an industry. It's not wise for someone who hasn't done an MA to have a firm opinion, but looking at it from the outside, I do rather get the impression that the students are taught a lot of rules, and told that there are things in writing that one must never do. Knowing the 'rules' is often useful - but knowing that they can in some cases be broken is useful, too.

Literary writing is much more polished now than is used to be. All published literary writing reads as though it's been edited until it can be edited no more. It all follows the 'rules'. It's much, much self-conscious than it used to be. It tries harder to please the reader. The quality of much writing has improved, but on the other hand, we have lost something - some of the real genius and special weirdness. It's the growth of the creative writing teaching industry that has killed the real individuality in writing.

So ... I think if I were in your position, I would probably try to teach myself. I think you would have more chance of finding and keeping your true voice that way, and not ending up believing that there are a thousand Thou Shalt Nots.

Thank you again @PrawnCorset - even more to think about. I wonder if I might get as much from a well-run/committed writers' circle, or a paid online course/community if such a thing exists. An MA does feel like a risk if really what I need is brutal feedback and something regular to hold me to account in terms of doing the work.
I fear I am, indeed, a post-Margaret Drabble Hampsteady lit fic writer .
@TramaDollface that's a good way to think of it - thanks a lot.