Boys outperforming girls in science & maths in Ireland. Why?

[TheWiseFish]

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/education/2024/12/04/boys-are-outperforming-girls-in-maths-and-science-at-second-level-why

The issue is the very young women may be making choices that limit their options later. I don't believe it's capability it's choices.

This means we don't end up with as many women in certain roles that ensures a more balanced approach.

Of course humanities and art are very valuable. But this discussion is on the math sex division and it's impact in stem.

Though to be fair most schools refer to STEAM and include art.

You are correct. Also applied maths is usually boy heavy too which is a shame as girls are missing out on extra points. Am I right in thinking higher level maths also gets bonus points?

Boys are actually performing very strongly in the humanities & more creative subjects including art & music.

We can't allow girls to fall behind in maths & science thus limiting their future career paths as @marblesbackagain has quite rightly pointed out.

I'm disappointed, but not really surprised. So many achievements that women had taken for granted have been lost, we have gone backwards in so many ways. You only have to see the following that the likes of Andrew Tate has, or the way in which women's rights have been eroded, to know that progress can't be taken for granted.

There was a brief period when it was suggested that children should just be let get on with being children, instead of being pigeonholed into how a boy/girl should be - the whole rats and snails/sugar and spice thing
.
It didn't last long, and the princess/butterfly/sparkles/fairy bandwagon soon rode into town to reassert the stereotypes.

Social media versions of what girls are like, and what 'girly' things girls can and can't do, probably don't help.

And the very influential transgender movement reinforces gender stereotypes- a girl who likes sports or electronics and doesn't like 'girly' things, or a boy who does not like sports or electronics and 'boy things' is encouraged to question if they really are the sex 'ascribed' at birth.

In other words, if the stereotype doesn't fit, change the child [sometimes chemically or surgically], not the stereotype..

I wonder have STEM subjects have become un-cool for girls, as a result of this re-assertion of gender stereotyping?

I wonder if social media messaging has anything to do with the decline.. Also more & more secondaries are becoming mixed, it is well known girls perform better in single sex schools & may be more likely to go down the science/higher maths route in single sex?

I'd like to see the stats from girls in single sex vs mixed to see if that makes any difference?

In my experience of my sons cohort its
aptitude. The girls were running even up to 4th year and then when it came to 5th year bang.

Some of them their scores bombed. And some who have the scores don't want to take on the extra work it is.

It is very noticeable in a small cohort who have come up from junior infants.

I think linking gender is stretching it. This pattern is in place since the dawn of time and there has only been about one or two years that bucked the trend.

This is maths, not pe, or any topic that may be a risk of embarrassment like biology etc.

The single sex thing has been questioned as the original research was debunked and the subsequent research isn't great.

The likelihood is girls would suffer by not having access to the subjects predominantly taken by boys. In mixed schools there is an even playing field, which is broader than single sex

If women are not equally represented in the fields of engineering and computing, the future world will not be designed with women in mind. When the default human is male and only males are involved, women will not be considered. It is true that male careers are more highly valued than 'female' careers, and that needs to change.. we see that in medicine.. decades ago.. the male dominted career of being a doctor was highly valued career.. comparatively as more women becme doctors.. the relative pay decreaed.. we also need more women in economics, and law... expecially in law making.

Unless women are equally represented in all plces where decisions are made, they will never be considered as eqaully important.

There are many factors to this.. stem is one.

@ChateauMargaux I agree with your post. The issue is young girls aren't taking subjects that lead to some of your identified men heavy sectors.

There has been lots of projects to support engagement some were really good but others were questionable.

I remember my son sharing his friends (girls) criticising a visit to a university in 4th class, they brought the girls to the uni and gave them pink lab coats.

It was I am sure a well meant thought but it annoyed his mates because they wanted the "real" white lab coats.

The key is that this was what was considered inclusion and encouragement!

I originally did law in the 1990s and left due to harassment and the fact it was a sector decades behind society. From friends I know there is progress but not equitable to other sectors.

Given so many secondary schools have become co-educational over the last few years I wonder if it has something to do with that. I agree with a previous poster that often facilities in all girls schools for STEM are often not the best but I would reckon there is also not the same amount of peer pressure that certain subjects are "boys subjects" or a fear of being the only girl taking a subject.

Well if Labour get their way all schools will be co-ed... interesting you mention peer pressure, I can totally see my daughter wanting to do say home ec as all her friends are.

I do feel it is very important for all education to be coed. If is important when everyone is learning to have everyone's voice.

The co ed if consistent breaks that peer grouping a little as friendship groups tend to be mixed.

I see it with my eldest. He has a mixed friendship group and they do benefit each other a lot.

If we want a more equitable society it starts by having education coed.

Personally I prefer to have choice & option's.

Mixed or single sex. Private or state schools.
Catholic school, church of Ireland,educate together or Irish medium. I wouldn't like any options removed.

I went to all girls schools throughout my schooldays. Made plenty of male friends through sports, my brothers & my friends brothers.

In educating our children choice & options really are imperative. Not all kids will thrive in single sex but not all will thrive in mixed schools either.

I don't equate the education context with single sex schools. The others are open to all, even the religious ones, single sex by their nature don't.

It also brings a lot of challenges now with younger individuals identifying as a different genders.

I don't equate mixing socially as the same. It could be zero per cent or up to what 20% of their week?

That doesn't give the children the opportunity to learn together and hear each others perspective.

We want women's voices at every table, that means being there when our formative thoughts on subjects from, in school.

I think the question of co ed versus single sex is not straightforward. There are pros and cons. Girls who feel they belong in higher level maths, science, computer science and economics lessons, who are supported to learn in a way that does not drown out their voices, can succeed, but teachers need to be mindful of it. I have heard too many teachers say - 'I know the type of student that will succeed', 'They need to be getting the answers quickly'.. 'They need to be comfortable with trying and failing'.. and when they are pushed to look at the behaviours and the scores of the girls who are quiet, who get on with their work, who understand deeply and fully before answering, who don't feel comfortable with shouting out the answers, who don't feel the need to be rewarded for the right answer.. but yet, seem to do OK in the exams... the are forced to rethink their approaches. These students often feel like they don't belong, like they are working too hard for their grades and that there are other classes where they will feel more at ease - so despite their good grades, they slink away to other subjects.

I also see classes where girls have to sit beside the boys, or be spread out around the class, meaning that not only are they removed from their female peers who they can collaborate with, they are also become responsible for the behaviour of others, often asked to show boys how to do the work, often blamed for bad behaviours, so they feel socially obligated to keep the boys quiet. There are some quiet mathematical girls who find the noise of the classroom difficult, the clicking, the swinging on the chair, the banter, the joking... these too, slink off to the girl heavy subjects.

Obviously there are boys who fit these pictures too... but it is these girls who might otherwise be in the higher maths classes, but are told or believe or feel, that they do not fit the mould.

One teacher told me that part of the reason was that girls are too good at English, so they focus on that instead. However, that was in context of an education system where it was not compulsory / desirable to take so many subjects at higher level.

Part of my job is going into secondaries and talking to young people about third level.

I am surrounded by 16 year old girls and boys as I have a home grown one 🤣.Over the oast twenty years there has been huge changes.

In primary they learn about different learning styles and how they benefit different subjects. They are given learning outcomes and shown the different levels of accessing them. This is key, because it is expected and stated that the work is not one size fit all and learning it won't be the same for everyone.

Teachers are well able to set work that facilitates different learning styles.

In most of our local schools Learners are given unassigned seating. In my experience they do tend to mix because their friendship groups are.

I do think a space that is representative of society is key to education success.