Light sentencing in Ireland re crime

[LadyEloise1]

Anyone else sick of the light sentences given in Ireland for crime.
I've just seen that a man who raped and sexually abused his youngest sister starting when she was 6 and he was 12 was given 7 and a half year sentence for the rapes. He was given consecutive sentences totalling 5 years for the sexual assaults but the judge decided that sentence would run concurrently with the 7 year term. FFS !!!
Apparently his remorse (yeah right ), the fact he pleaded guilty and he had no previous convictions were mitigating factors. The judge suspended the final 18 months of the sentence, despite the judge saying that the victim was a vulnerable and defenceless child, the offences were humiliating and degrading, that the victim had a right to bodily integrity and that she lived in fear.
Will this child rapist be out in 3 years ?
I am utterly disgusted with this sentence.

@BrandyandGinger

I bet he doesn’t lose his job. He’ll get a bollocking by a senior officer then he’ll be posted abroad somewhere until the heat has died down and people forget his name and his crime. He’ll probably get promoted in due course. 😠

That was me, @DeanElderberry

Irish attitudes towards gay people was horrendous in the 80's. I don't remember the case was too young but I know it had a huge impact and the a major influence in gay pride matches.

While attitudes towards LGB has changed, it appears the attitudes towards women has not.

"Scream softly or the neighbours will hear" still the order of the day

Yes I am well aware men are victims too. This thread is about the litany of crappy sentences when women are the victims.

It was 2002 before rape in marriage was finally recognised as a crime.

www.irishlegal.com/article/irish-legal-heritage-marital-rape

Rape is still under reported, under prosecuted and still the onus is on the victim to prove they did not provoke/tease the poor man.

Crotty was not alone that night. He was with other men.
Did none of those intervene ?
Apparently not.
It was other passers by who intervened to stop the attack.

Were the others in the group with Crotty also members of the Irish Army ?
If so, the Irish Army authorities need to investigate them.

Yes I am well aware men are victims too. This thread is about the litany of crappy sentences when women are the victims. According to the OP this thread is about light sentences for crime in Ireland.

You raised the Flynn case, and the cross-comparisons are interesting and depressing. 41 years to change things for the better, so little done.

At the time of the Flynn case there was no way to appeal the sentence. The process may be inadequate now - then it didn't exist.

I have no idea whether the judge in this case would have decided Crotty couldn't have know what he did would cause death. As I said, that was the claim in the Flynn case - despite two of the offenders being in the Defence Forces, so presumably well-informed on killing people and trained to do it - the army managed to avoid that by having him plead guilty. Have they learned how to cover their backsides, or anything more profound? They certainly don't seem to have learned to train their people not to attack defenseless Irish civilians.

Flynn was treated by the court as someone with no right to expect not to be assaulted. I noticed one person on Boards.ie saying that Natasha O'Brien provoked the attack on her by speaking to Crotty (no-one agreed with that) - I wonder would Crotty's lawyer have pursued that angle - poor fragile man shouldn't have to cope with female disapproval?

Then there's the whole character reference thing - again a factor in the Flynn case - it is only now, more than four decades later, that there's a suggestion that people giving them should be expected to stand up and be cross examined. Only a suggestion - it hasn't happened yet.

Yes, more women than men are victims of male violence, but many of the cowardly thugs will attack anyone who they think can't fight back, and the lack of adequate legal protection and redress affects everyone.

This case is sending a clear message, give the victim a few € and they should shut up and go away.

It comes across as the judge believes money cures all.

If he is truly remorseful then basic self reflection tells him he cannot and should not drink alcohol.

He obviously cannot handle it.

I’ve come across a few men on Twitter saying that Natasha provoked the attack 'because women can say anything they want to a man nowadays without repercussions'. I’m horrified but not entirely surprised by the disgusting mindset of a man who thinks beating a woman is a suitable response to her saying something he doesn’t like. We’ve not made as much progress on societal misogyny in Ireland as we really should have.

Working in the legal area, and been involved with such cases from time to time, I have to say I was surprised with the sentence. Let's see what happens next.

Very very poor turnout in Cork today for the protest. Lots of people just move on and forget. The system is like this because it is allowed to be. We can and should do much better!!

Do other countries allow character witnesses for defendants? It seems such a ridiculous, archaic idea. It's basically saying that if you know the right people you can do what you like.
Also the amount of compensation seemed ridiculously low. If Natasha had suffered the same kind of injuries in a car crash or at work the compensation would surely be way higher.
Natasha had been incredibly brave. I hope this doesn't get forgotten about and I hope things really change this time.

I wondered whether other countries allow the ludicrous system we have here of character witnesses here for defendants too @BrandyandGinger

Does anyone remember the outrageous behaviour of men in a Listowel court shaking hands with the perpetrator of a sexual assault, security guard Danny Foley in 2009.
The parish priest of Castlegregory was a character witness for him in court.
FFS.

The parish priest in Listowel was furious about that - I don't know whether he had any seniority. I know he went to the poor woman's house to express solidarity with her. It was shameful and shameless all at the same time.

The soldier who was a character witness should also be sanctioned by the army.

Glad to hear that the parish priest of Listowel went to the victim'shouse and denounced what had occurred @DeanElderberry

I clearly remember that case, the priest didn't just give a character witness statement and shake his hand, he doubled down and went on Newstalk the next day to lament the miscarriage of justice.

This was in 2009.

We had the case where the senior female barrister used the underwear of a 17yr old girl as a weapon to get her client off.

This was in 2018.

Still nothing has changed, we keep hoping this case might be the one but it never is.

What will it take for victims to get justice?

Another Judge Tom O'Donnell one

"O’Gorman of Drumgoole, Castlecomer, Co Kilkenny, pleaded guilty last summer to assault causing harm at a Limerick address in May 2020.
He was described in a court as an accomplished heavyweight boxer on the Naval Service boxing team. The court heard how he punched the victim with both hands to the head at least five to 10 times, leaving her terrified and bleeding from the right eye.
Judge Tom O’Donnell suspended O’Gorman’s sentence last autumn after the Naval officer agreed to make a significant payment to the victim and she agreed to accept it.
In a victim impact statement read to the court, the woman described how she feared she would die during the attack and was still afraid to smile because it made her eye look out of sync.
Several months after the conclusion of criminal proceedings against O’Gorman over the drunken attack, he remains a serving member of the Naval Service."

https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/courts/2024/06/24/naval-service-officer-still-in-role-almost-a-year-after-guilty-plea-in-violent-attack/

https://archive.ph/SBT9O

Irish Times article today says that judge is retiring this week..... it's not a coincidence apparently 🤔
Also, he's ex-army so that explains a lot!

Sorry!!!! I misread the article, he wasn't ex-army.

Too late to edit.

Oh @miri1985 I missed that one.

Does Judge Tom O' Donnell have a wife ?
sisters ?
granddaughters?

I wonder what they think of his sentencing?

I know he has sons. I don't think he has daughters.

Another case of a suspended sentence:
Man who dragged ex-partner along road in 'horrific' attack gets 21-month suspended sentence (thejournal.ie)

Note that he has been diagnosed as being bipolar, and I don't want to minimise the issue of mental illness. However, as far as I know mental illness is not automatically a defence in law, it's not always 'insanity' (sorry, but that's the legal term), there'd have to be proof that the defendant's action was due to his 'insanity' at the time.

And I'm not a '...and throw away the key' kind of person, I believe in rehabilitation and second chances, and I also know that if you haven't heard all the evidence, you may not have a fair take on a court case.

But either way - look at the things the judge took into account e.g.
'He took into account that the accused had two young children with other partners, and incarceration would negatively impact that relationship.'
!!
'The court heard he worked on the family farm but had also done a barber training course and had good family support. Galvin stopped taking illicit drugs and is now engaging with mental health services, and the court was furnished with a doctor’s report indicating a recent bipolar diagnosis.
It was clear, the judge said, that if the accused stayed off illegal substances and alcohol and continued to engage with mental health service and probation service, his risk of reoffending would reduce, and he could become a contributing member of society.
The judge said Galvin addressed the risk factors. He took into account that the accused had two young children with other partners, and incarceration would negatively impact that relationship.'

Marie, the man’s reputation mustn't be ruined in the local community, do ya know nothin about the importance of a man’s good name in Irish society?! 😏

As well domestic violence isn't a real crime, its so far down the scale compared to not paying your TV licence, now thats a crime worthy of a custodial sentence.

According to the Indo, there are now 68 members of the Defence Forces that have convictions or are before the courts for offences including rape.

Also in the Indo is a report about Paula Doyle whose rapist was able to view her private counselling notes (with the rape crisis centre) before the trial. He is Aidan Kestell and he got 7.5 years sentence.

I don't know which of the above reports is the worst, probable equally awful.

I am so shocked and surprised that confidential therapy notes are available to the accused. That doesn't seem right to me at all. To the defence and the DPP ok, but to the actual accused? Who would go to therapy and take a case anymore?

Does anyone agree with me? Maybe it's a given in such cases I don't know but I'm still shocked.

68 Defence Forces personnel have convictions or are before the courts for a range of offences including rape, report finds | Irish Independent

‘He raped me and now he was reading my intimate thoughts’ – victim on trauma of attacker seeing her therapy notes before trial | Irish Independent

I saw Paula Doyle's interview in the Irish Independent.
Absolutely shocking that her rapist Aidan Kestell had access to her counselling session notes !

We have hand wringing from our politicians but they make the laws.
Shame on recent Ministers for Justice.

I agree with you @hastalav that is a shocking breach of confidentiality and privacy/dignity. It’s like it’s almost the degrading nature of the whole legal process is designed to discourage women from pursuing justice.

That's probably the motive behind it, we must protect the patriarchy by whatever means possible to keep the victims quiet.