How do I protect the kids

[BergamotMouse]

So after 2.5 years DH and I have finally caught Covid for the first time.
Feeling pretty poorly. Temp of 40. Dreadful cough. But we have 2 kids, 6 and 3.
Do we just accept there's nothing we can do? I can't let them fend for themselves but feel bad filling the room with coughs.

For all we know they've given it to us (haven't tested them).

you have an air purifier FOR HIS PRAM ???!!! where on earth do you live, it can't be the UK surely?

2022agsin

you have an air purifier FOR HIS PRAM ???!!! where on earth do you live, it can't be the UK surely?

Bloody frightening isn't it -the poor child is going to grow up with so many issues 😢

I'm sorry you guys think somehow I'm crazy for protecting my child from potential ill health. He's leading a perfectly normal life and is well socialised. I have a duty of care for him.

I realise it's more difficult for school age children to avoid COVID, but my initial response was to the comment that 'COVID is mild, children can catch it no problem'. This is not true. The government has peddled a lie and it's our children who are suffering the consequences. If they had expended their efforts on trying to improve air quality in schools and reduce infection, instead of trying to deny the reality of the harm they are causing with 'let it rip' and non-existent 'hybrid immunity', we wouldn't be in the situation we are in now with spiraling new variants and people suffering their 3rd or 4th infection. Long covid is no joke.

If there are simple steps you can take to protect your kids, why not take them?

Data to March 2021 doesn't include the omicron surge. In the US, a 5th of all pediatric covid deaths occurred since Omicron. In England alone, the latest stats updated to 8th Sept for Deaths within 28 days of positive test by age and sex show:
age 0-4: 46 deaths
[for some reason they've missed out the 5-9 age group, it's not zero, it's just not there]
10-14: 29 deaths
15-19: 89 deaths
Total: 164 (up to March 2021 the total was 37 including age 5-9).

So you can see that's already a significant increase on the 37 overall deaths you listed above up to March 2021, and that's excluding the 5-9 year old age group. Source is coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths?areaType=nation&areaName=England

These are not huge numbers, but don't forget COVID generally doesn't lead to death (fortunately) but the longer term effects are sinister, and that's the scary part.

46, 26, 29 for the 3 age groups in the last 2.5 years with a positive test (which is not the same as the real cause of death since they started routinely testing all hospital admissions here).

Any infant death is tragic for the parents involved but these are very low numbers.

I'm sure if I had a young child I would be worried too, but it is important not to let worry about covid overshadow reality, and harm a child in other ways such as not letting them interact with others, or them not see people's mouths who are speaking.

I don't know about the US, but in the UK a lot of the harm to children during the pandemic was by closing schools which lead to isolation and mental health issues. They closed the schools not to stop children getting covid per se, but to stop them being vectors across the community and infecting older more at risk people.

89 not 29 deaths for the 15-19 age group.

Millions of children in Asia are still masked in schools and they are doing fine, it's only the western world that has decided masks are somehow a breach of human rights.

In any case, if we had adequate ventilation then masks would not be required (except by those who are sick). I'm not saying we need to close down schools, but measures need to be implemented to stop the continued unabated infection of children (and by extension, adults) because the long term cost to health is going to be crippling. The acute phase of infection of covid carries a very small risk of death, but the odds of long covid are high and increase with every reinfection.

Somehow mass (re)infection has become normalised, including by parents, and that's crazy.

You do realise the air purifier is just a small portable fan? What are your imagining, that I've got his pram enclosed in some space age bubble with foil tube running out of it?

I have googled said air purifier and my level of shock still stands! This is not normal and he is not leading a normal life....do you have a spouse, parents, friends,nephews and nieces? Do they all have to wear a n95 mask whenever they see your child or does he just have no contact with family? Do you never take him inside a supermarket, restaurant or a museum? Does he ever get to go swimming? It's ok, I've realised you may not actually be that well so any number of people pointing out all the rational facts around children's risk and covid won't make a blind bit of difference to you. This level of germ phobia can actually be part of mental illness so I appreciate the challenges you may be facing...but do consider that this can equally have implications for your child's health. Life is full of risks and part of raising a child is accepting a level of risk for those things that we can't ultimately control.

We live perfectly normal lives and I am perfectly mentally well thanks - judgmental much? What is so horrifying about attaching a fan purifier to his pram?

My son goes to playgroup 2-3 times a week with his dad, he goes to the park twice a day, we go to the supermarket and the library, I work in an office.

Perhaps you need to reassess your worldview - why does it bother you so much that I wear a mask indoors? Is it a reminder that COVID is not over however much you'd like to pretend it doesn't exist? Unfortunately it's even less over than before thanks to unmitigated spread because everyone was in such a hurry to pretend life was normal, and now we're in even deeper sh*t.

By the way @2022again you're the one avoiding the 'rational facts' about COVID - the scientific evidence is there. I follow the science. I have assessed the risk and am taking minor measures to mitigate risk, namely masking indoors and socialising outside as much as possible. This is rational behaviour and it doesn't cost me anything.

(46, 26, 29 are for the 3 lower age groups up to 14.)

Personally I'm of the 'we have to learn to live with Covid' camp, just as we do with yearly flu. Lockdowns were the right things when it was a novel virus we didn't understand, had limited treatments of, and no vaccines.

Now we have treatments, vaccines and understanding, and the current strain is less dangerous. We can't afford to limit society because of Covid on neither a financial nor mental health basis.

I'm not averse to some more mask wearing especially in winter. But my extended family have been more impacted by the side consequences (isolation, lack of access to other health care, serious anxiety, impact to education) than they have been by the illness itself.

As an ex-healthcare professional with friends still working in the NHS I'm quite aware that covid has had severe consequences for huge numbers of people and will have severe consequences for many for a good few years to come and I don't underestimate the health burden this has put on the country. We can all "follow the science" in any way we like but if you pick and choose particular aspects of that science to shore up your belief that covid is of significant risk to your child when the rational reading of the stats says that it isn't then you will have people on here perhaps taking issue with your view! You conflate exposure to dirt as being the same as exposure to common circulating illnesses in healthy development of the immune system but it isn't. There are certainly many bugs (measles, polio etc) you certainly don't want your child exposed to before they get their childhood vaccines but there are many illnesses where it's important that children have their exposure to at a younger age otherwise the consequences can be more severe. I have no problem with people choosing to wear masks in an office environment but your child will be heading for pre-school and school in a couple of years and how will you control it then? Are you intending to wear a mask at the office for the rest of your life? Will you be sending your child to pre-school in a n95 mask? Unless they make vaccines for children available privately your child will need to be exposed at some point through contact with other humans...personally I'd prefer my child to be exposed to omicron rather than other future variants that may (or may not) be more illness-causing.

Just keep yourselves as isolated as you can. Not really too much to worry about as if kids get it it is usually very mild. It does make you feel pretty rotten though

ps I have no idea of things like vaccine roll out / take up in the USA. I've personally just had my 4th vaccine, for free, here in the UK. I suspect as always location and localised experiences influence a lot on how we view the risk.

(I also have a friend who works for a university who was looking into lung function and transplants prior to covid even starting so listening to her insights have been interesting).

@ThaiDye I would also argue that a child seeing his mother continuously masked when meeting other people is not rational or normal unless you or someone in your circle is severely-immune compromised, undergoing chemo or similar. We are social beings and normal social development of children involves seeing people speak and their facial expressions and masks do impact on that. I met 2 Chinese students at the weekend, here for a year and dreading going back home because of their covid restrictions. They commented how different it was here, that people were friendly and actually talked to them!

@2022again you say "personally I'd prefer my child to be exposed to omicron rather than other future variants that may (or may not) be more illness-causing."

The flaw in your argument is that omicron exposure is not really providing any immunity against the other variants. So infection with omicron isn't necessarily going to protect your child against the next variants. Hence people getting covid again within weeks of previous infection, there are threads about this on here if you don't believe me. And each reinfection comes with increased risk of long term effects.

My son gets plenty of exposure to maskless faces because, as I've said, we spend plenty of time outside, and we don't mask at home. And yes I will continue to wear a N95 mask to the office/supermarket/other indoor place if there is a high chance of me catching covid. There is no mental illness at play (and you really shouldn't be bandying around 'diagnoses' of mental illness willy nilly online) but rational decision making.

@ThaiDye i'm not bandying about anything but from my own family experience I'm aware it has made some people hyper vigilant about covid in a way that's disproportionate to the current situation and is actually an unhealthy state of mind. Covid is not something that creates ultimate "immunity", many of the risks were associated with that initial exposure to a completely novel virus, so our children will get repeated exposures (as they do to other coronaviruses) throughout their childhood into adulthood which means ultimately we won't have the death rates we have experienced so far. You have stated that "and each reinfection comes with increased risk of long term effects" ,where have you got this assertion from? You keep asserting that you are being rational , but if this is the case, why are you an outlier in your behaviour compared to the majority? Why isn't everyone who works in the NHS behaving like you? The reception team in my Dr's surgery don't even wear masks. Or are you somehow unusually rational?

Here is a blog about the study on reinfections, a pre-print but from a team with a good reputation. erictopol.substack.com/p/a-reinfection-red-flag

Why are people not taking more measures? Because the UK (especially English) government gave up on public health messaging and jumped on the 'omicron is mild' bandwagon to act like the pandemic is over. There is a significant group of people however who prefer to follow the advice of scientists and doctors actively working on this topic, and the message is very clear that catching covid should be avoided as much as possible.

In other countries, governments are now rolling back their relaxations - Germany reintroduced masking (N95 only) on public transport this autumn and the German Minister of Health has said it's his duty to protect children from a virus for which the long term consequences are still too unknown. Meanwhile in the UK the Minister of Health is handing out her prescription antibiotics to friends, so good luck getting any action trying to reduce infections.

Many hospitals in the UK are now requiring masking again. But the public health messaging has been so dire that people think that 'masks are advised' = 'masks are not required'. We even get GP receptionists telling patients they don't have to wear a mask! If I worked in any healthcare setting, it would be blindingly obvious to me that I should wear a good mask, not only to protect myself but also all the vulnerable patients. Instead in the UK we now have a situation where last month, something like 30% of people in hospital caught covid FROM hospital! That is a complete failure of public healthcare.

Totally agree with everything you’ve said @ThaiDye . The public health response in the U.K. had been shocking. The fact that so many people GENUINELY believe that a few minor mitigations is worse than risking their kids’ long term health is just devastating 😞. It’s a shame more people people don’t open their eyes beyond what this government feeds to them and question why most other countries are doing things differently. They seem determined to turn a blind eye even to the basics (like how often do we see on Mumsnet people taking about sanitising?! Or I’ve had abuse from other parents for simply asking to open a window 😞 How did we get to this stage and level of misinformation?!). Just to say that some of us totally understand where you’re coming from and I have nothing but admiration for you living your life but still doing everything you can to keep your little one safe x

ig.ft.com/coronavirus-lockdowns/

The link above from the Financial Times shows a lockdown stringency index for countries. The UK isn't particularly out of step with other western European countries.

(that said there are a number of comments saying it isn't very good)

@ThaiDye, there are some who care about health and education (enough to do something about it) - www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-63232551

Yes I'm aware of this @RainStalksMyWashing , and it's great, but it shouldn't be a charitable initiative by a few individuals, it should be government policy/law to sort out air quality in all schools, and all places where for example smoking is forbidden. There's really no argument not to clean the air.

@CinnamonSwirlGirl you hit the nail on the head.

And to all those that think catching covid builds immunity, it's very likely the opposite. It's likely to suppress immunity, increasing susceptibility to other viruses, which could explain why RSV etc is running rampant.

Again, there is no benefit to catching COVID.

www.washingtonpost.com/health/2022/10/21/rsv-children-hospital-capacity/

Cc @2022again

@ThaiDye i do love your capacity to pick and choose aspects of an article, did these following sections of the article not register with you ? there is the comment about one theory about covid supressing immunity but you have failed to notice the other theories about the increase in RSV being linked to childrens' lack of socialisation and masking...
"Salazar and other doctors said one possible reason for the rise in RSV cases is that “pandemic babies” born in the past three years had been protected from respiratory pathogens due to social distancing and masking."
"James Versalovic, pathologist in chief at Texas Children’s, said the surge of RSV outside of the typical season could be attributed to how different respiratory viruses interact with each other and how the pandemic changed children born in recent years.
“Their immune systems and immunity may have been altered in ways that we’re just beginning to appreciate,” he said, adding that the pandemic has changed humankind’s “pattern of susceptibility to respiratory viruses.”
Hackell, of the American Academy of Pediatrics, said masking during the pandemic simply delayed the normal infection pattern for respiratory pathogens . “We are seeing a lot more cases at one time where they used to be spread out,” he said. “

The sad thing is, very young, otherwise healthy kids are far more likely to end up in hospital because of RSV than they will with Covid. My concern for your son is that having lived a very protected toddlerhood, when he does enter the school system he will be hit at very frequent intervals with all the normal bugs they encounter and I don't know why you think this is any better then gradual exposure...as most of us with older kids will tell you , pre- school and primary are constant sources of germs and infections. Or are you going to send him in a n95 mask?