Sadiq Khan wants to limit indoor mixing but why is he not addressing the low vaccine rates in London instead?

[Jobconfused]

In some areas of London the vaccine update is so low (think less than 60% of first dose and less than 20% booster), and significantly below the national average. Why is Kahn not addressing this and asking for further restrictions instead? He had the whole of 2021 to work on increasing the uptake amongst the London communities and now he is declaring a state of emergency. I don’t get it. What am I missing

I saw an article that suggested the rates aren't as low as the stats would suggest in some parts of London because many "Londoners" haven't been in London for the duration but are overseas, where they may or may not have had the vaccine, but if they have won't be in the figures.

That's probably not the case in poor communities though. I do think more could have been done by working with community leaders.

@LovelyLovelyWarmCoffee

We should do like the European countries and have covid passes. Not vaccinated = no access to restaurants, long distance trains, non essential shops, leisure centers, etc. I bet a good number would change their mind and get vaccinated.

I don't understand this because you can get a Covid pass by having a negative test, whether you're vaccinated or not?

I do think the idea that they would need vaccines for travel, nightclubs, etc is what got a lot of young people (who had no real personal need) vaccinated.

I think Khan’s done what he can.
He’s even publicly mentioned the elephant in the room - race/culture. Maybe a bit late, but still he did say it.

Time to make those who refuse the vaccine take responsibility for that action, I reckon.

I don't think all the young who aren't fully vaccinated have entrenched views many just haven't got round to it or aren't sure about the benefits. For this group the threat of having travel or social lives curtailed does encourage vaccination.
DD was motivated to get boosted but there has been a push in Lambeth and it was very easy for her to organise. I have 3 young 20 somethings and they all have anecdotes of previously unvaccinated friends getting sorted now ; hopefully numbers will go up. Unfortunately as so often during this crisis the messaging has been unclear. Yes , we are not a society that forces medical procedures but it really is socially unacceptable not to get it done if you can and likewise isolating if you have respiratory symptoms until covid ruled out and mask wearing in any sort of public place. Genuine exemptions for any of these things are very unusual and yet even now , with mask wearing back for the majority I would estimate that 10% of supermarket users are not wearing them.

[quote onlychildhamster]@CurtainTroubles well my SIL is one of the vaccine refusers supposedly but she has been triple jabbed in Israel...she lives in Israel but is registered to a GP in london. I have viewed 2 flats recently, both owned by people who have moved to Israel but kept their flats in London (probably pensioners as they are more expensive 3 bed flats), and like my SIL, they probably didn't deregister from GP.

In fact the pandemic has actually encouraged many Jews to rethink their lifestyle and decamp to Israel.Aliyah has increased. Its a similar phenomenon as people moving to the countryside.

I would be interesting in the stats that Jews are vaccinated in lower numbers as I was vaccinated at the Jewish Vegetarian Society last week in a pretty religious area and there were many many Jews...I hardly know anyone who isn't vaccinated![/quote]
I think it's the most Orthodox Jews that largely aren't vaccinated in London, not Jews in general. But then they hardly interact with "normal" London life in non-pandemic times - own schools, own shops and services, sometimes even own doctors - so it's hardly surprising if they don't engage with mainstream vaccination.

@LovelyLovelyWarmCoffee

We should do like the European countries and have covid passes. Not vaccinated = no access to restaurants, long distance trains, non essential shops, leisure centers, etc. I bet a good number would change their mind and get vaccinated.

Is that really the kind of society you want to live in?

I don’t want to live in a society where a few muppets do their research on Facebook and bring the health service to a halt.
So whilst I’m no fan of Covid passports, I’d take them every day of the week rather than the current situation.

Is that really the kind of society you want to live in?

Yes! That’s exactly the kind of society I want to live in. Covid kills people. If I was in charge, I would ban unvaccinated from shops, restaurants, etc. If you want to be a dangerous biohazard, then stay home.

I live in a London borough with low-ish take up and the local council has done lots to try and encourage take up here all the way through this year. I think though there comes a point when the more you encourage people, the more suspicious they become.

I was reading a discussion about vaccines in the local Facebook group last week and the comments from those who are against the vaccines are all the typical misinformation about experimental vaccines that don't work, long term effects and so on. It's very, very difficult to break through that as they seem to encourage each other - there is a very cult-like sense of wanting to believe they know the truth. And then unfortunately others will be influenced by the most vocal anti-vax types too.

@nordica it’s the same in my borough. The council are trying so hard, but people aren’t listening. They even put on a Fun Day in the summer, with music, etc. where people could get the vaccine. Hardly anyone went.

@MousesBack my MIL is orthodox...she has had the jab as well as almost all her friends. The Haredim, I am not so sure, though I have seen many at vaccine centres. My MIL's NHS GP is well versed in Jewish halacha (Jewish law) regarding medication (that's why my MIL stays with him despite him being 2 tube stops away), I imagine he is also religious enough for the haredim .

Idk, I always found that even very religious Jews tend to not be too opposed to medical procedures. It's why the effort to eliminate Tay Sachs in Jewish babies has been fairly successful, 1 in 25 Jews are Tay Sachs carriers including my husband but as far as I know even the ultra orthodox listen to medical advice and get tested before marriage..it's the social distancing guidelines they have a genuine problem with because the religion is so communal and they aren't allowed internet for personal use so being stuck at home isn't too fun...Their form of learning also involves a lot of debate...

Jewish law values life above all. There are probably some rabbis who are ill informed but most ultra orthodox rabbis support the vaccines.

Thank you @onlychildhamster - you sound like you know a lot more than me. It just bothered me to see previously posts blaming low take up in Jewish communities when the vast majority of the many "integrated" Jews I know here in London are vaccinated just like everyone else.
Rates of Covid have at times been exceptionally high in the closed off Haredi community in Stamford Hill so perhaps this is where this idea has come from.

We should do like the European countries and have covid passes. Not vaccinated = no access to restaurants, long distance trains, non essential shops, leisure centers, etc

So since I've never had an answer when I've asked this before, I'll try again and ask how you imagine that would go down in communities who tell us they're already marginalised?

I honestly do get the unease over targeting measures by racial demographics, though government are damned whatever they do on this one. Focus on selected communities and they're called racist, but resist intervention and they'll be racist again because they "didn't care enough to do anything"

As a PP said it really is an elephant in the room, and all of it feeds the poisonous hatred of the real racists

What’s the solution, then? Lockdown and restrictions will hurt all of society, the marginalised you are talking about included, and probably even to a bigger extent to some.

Restriction on unvaccinated will allow the best part of society to keep functioning, and the marginalised groups you are talking about will benefit from that.

What’s the lesser evil?

@User135644

Low vaccination rates in London can't be fixed in the short term. One jab won't make much difference and would still take a week or two to kick in. Then its months until jab 2.

The issue is right now.

But vaccines have been available for most of this year to a large proportion of the population. My local authority is now including 13+ in their reporting statistics, but even with that the take up rate for a first vaccine is still only 60%. Second vaccines down to 45% . So at least 40% of the local population are not vaccinated at all, and 55% are inadequately vaccinated. I sometimes click on other areas of the country to compare and many of them are reporting 80+% of first vaccines and a similar proportion of second vaccines. It is a huge difference. My area is not wealthy, many people live in overcrowded accommodation, work in industries that do not support wfh , use public transport rather that own cars and are therefore very exposed to infection.

I am also pretty horrified at the way poor instructions are relayed for lft and PCR. I am well educated and read very well, but I had to re read the instructions in the lft booklet , and the wall chart displayed for a PCR at my local testing centre. In fact at least one of the instructions on the PCR gives the wrong information according to the minder at the PCR station! I dread to think how people with poor literacy skills, or who don’t read English well are coping.

Frankly I'm not convinced there is a solution, Chardonnay - at least not an easy one - but while I have ideas I'll delay offering any until anyone wants to answer my repeated questions around how the constant suggestions of "lock down the unvaccinated!!" will be received

why is he not addressing the low vaccine rates in London instead?

Because he knows who his core voters are and he knows they are the same people who won't get vaccinated.

@Puzzledandpissedoff

Frankly I'm not convinced there is a solution, Chardonnay - at least not an easy one - but while I have ideas I'll delay offering any until anyone wants to answer my repeated questions around how the constant suggestions of "lock down the unvaccinated!!" will be received

I think that after another ruined Christmas it will be received quite well.

I wonder if a proportion are people with jobs that work silly long hours, and a requirement to allow someone paid time off for a vaccination would help.

@fourdayholiday

I wonder if a proportion are people with jobs that work silly long hours, and a requirement to allow someone paid time off for a vaccination would help.

You can be vaccinated over the weekend.

To answer your original question OP because Sadiq is useless and that would require far too much work.

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

I am sure he is doing what he can to increase take up

Yes, but what and how come you are so sure?

Let's see, talki.g with community leaders, additional information in a wider variety of languages, targeted adverts in community radio, shops etc. A while raft of stuff that is also going on in every community with an identifiable community with low uptake.

How do I know? Because earlier in the year we used some of the information he had collated for Londoners out here in the Boonies. His office offered, we accepted and it made a measurable difference here.

Many other organisations shared similar ideas and information. Because that's how Public Health coordinates with community health!

Talk is cheap.

What? How the fuck do you suggest people are encouraged to get vaxxed?

And if you don't work in community health, education you probably have absolutely no idea!

@NdujaWannaDance

why is he not addressing the low vaccine rates in London instead?

Because he knows who his core voters are and he knows they are the same people who won't get vaccinated.

for this

Plus also absolute bollocks.

If you look at the correlation between tertiary qualifications and voting Labour, and tertiary qualifications and being vaccinated, that is where the overlap is.