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SAGE only gives govt the bad scenarios…..

173 replies

CamQ · 19/12/2021 06:30

It turns out that the Government uses the pessimistic SAGE models to make decisions without evaluating their probability or context.
The chair of the SAGE modelling committee explained to Fraser Nelson that they have only given the government models of the worst scenarios, not what happens if omicron is a mild disease - and so the government seems only to make decisions based on the worst models, without looking at their probability. This is also on Fraser Nelson’s Twitter.

www.spectator.co.uk/article/my-twitter-conversation-with-the-chairman-of-the-sage-covid-modelling-committee

If this approach continues for every variant we really won’t ever be out of this nightmare.

The government must widen their advice and look at the bigger long term picture.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
HarrietteNightingale · 19/12/2021 11:22

I do think its potentially bad enough to do that briefly actually.

Presumably you have a line where suggested measures would be too extreme? Like closing schools for months (a huge source of transmission) or restricting purchases and deliveries to a set list of "essentials"? Mandatory vaccinations? Electronic tags for those isolating? We all think some things are too high a price to pay. Some people think lockdowns are.

LemonViolet · 19/12/2021 11:28

@carrythecan

No, we cannot lockdown again. The damage done from lockdowns is huge and there is no evidence to suggest they work. All they do is postpone the inevitable. To lockdown again, based on worse case scenarios by SAGE, is absolutely crazy.
I know I said I wouldn’t stay on the thread but I’m only human and this has drawn me back in…….. “postponing the inevitable” IS how lockdowns, and other covid protection measures, work, it is exactly what they are supposed to do. Reduce the speed of spread, so healthcare services can keep up with the level of infection at any one time. They’re not designed to stop spread. That is not an option.
TooManyPlatesInMotion · 19/12/2021 11:32

@UnmentionedElephantDildo

Do you actually read the SAGE reports (they are published)

If so, perhaps you might then rephrase your questions to:

a) why do the press always seem to draw most attention to the worst case scenarios? and
b) who is telling SAGE what they want reports on?

Exactly this.
carrythecan · 19/12/2021 11:33

@LemonViolet yes fine back in March 20, but it should have only been used as a short term measure. We now have the consequences of the prolonged lockdowns with added pressure of the back log on the NHS. Locking down now is not the answer.

chesirecat99 · 19/12/2021 11:35

Fraser Nelson may well "be thick", as he suggests in his own tweets. Although I suspect from his tweets that he is being disingenous and trying to get the answers he wants rather than the truth. Certainly, he is irresponsible interviewing via twitter where Prof Medley can only give answers to complicated questions in 280 characters... If he genuinely believed he had a scoop that SAGE were holding back or manipulating information, he would have set up a proper interview to ask those questions.

He (and everyone on this thread) would do well to read the SAGE introduction to epidemiological modelling to understand the limitations of modelling. We might get fewer posts about SAGE getting it wrong predicting 100k cases a day in the summer if people actually understood more about modelling.

Modelling is not an attempt to predict the future, it is a description of what will happen if X, Y and Z assumptions are true. In reality, human behaviour (which has an effect on transmission and outcomes), is very difficult to predict, which will have a impact on the model's accuracy. I think we can all predict that people will not behave the same way in a lockdown now as they did in the first lockdown but how can anyone know to what extent people will adhere to the rules?

Modelling can never exactly replicate reality and therefore no individual model will give a perfect description of the future.

Sometimes we ask modellers to produce ‘reasonable worst-case scenarios’. This is where the parameters of the models are chosen to generate a challenging, but plausible range of possibilities describing what might happen in a highly pessimistic scenario. For example, this could be a scenario of no further policy changes, with some assumptions made more pessimistic, such as the emergence of a hypothetical variant of a virus that evades immunity. These sorts of scenarios are designed to inform government planning for more extreme situations.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/introduction-to-epidemiological-modelling/introduction-to-epidemiological-modelling-october-2021

As for omicron being less virulent than delta, there is very little evidence of that. There is some - it appears to be less effective at infecting and replicating in lung tissue. That is not enough evidence to assume that it is less virulent and decide policy based on that. If we are wrong, by the time we know that, it will likely be too late to take action. As Prof Medley says, modelling that scenario does not inform anything. "Decision makers don't have to decide if nothing happens."

Furthermore, virulence is only one factor that determines severity of disease. Immunity levels (you need to take into account that different vaccines seem to provide different levels of immunity, as does immunity from infection, and immunity wanes over time), genetics, comorbidities (people having other diseases), age etc. You can't compare the UK to South Africa because our popuations are not the same.

FWIW, analysis of the data in the UK (Imperial) suggests that severity of disease is the same for delta and omicron here so far. That comes with a huge caveat that we have very little data so far so may be inaccurate.

It's also likely that transmission may well be higher in the UK. There are many factors that will affect transmission that are not determine by the virus's inherent transmissibility eg it is summer in SA (people are inside less, the virus survives longer outside the body in humid, cold conditions), restrictions, mask wearing (compulsory in public places in SA).

chesirecat99 · 19/12/2021 11:43

The damage done from lockdowns is huge and there is no evidence to suggest they work. All they do is postpone the inevitable.

Lockdown would not just postpone the inevitible, @carrythecan, it would give time for everyone who wants to be vaccinated to get a booster, which will have a huge impact on the outcomes.

Apart from the obvious benefit of reducing concurrent cases numbers and hospitalisations so the NHS can cope.

AlecTrevelyan006 · 19/12/2021 12:27

@chesirecat99

Fraser Nelson may well "be thick", as he suggests in his own tweets. Although I suspect from his tweets that he is being disingenous and trying to get the answers he wants rather than the truth. Certainly, he is irresponsible interviewing via twitter where Prof Medley can only give answers to complicated questions in 280 characters... If he genuinely believed he had a scoop that SAGE were holding back or manipulating information, he would have set up a proper interview to ask those questions.

He (and everyone on this thread) would do well to read the SAGE introduction to epidemiological modelling to understand the limitations of modelling. We might get fewer posts about SAGE getting it wrong predicting 100k cases a day in the summer if people actually understood more about modelling.

Modelling is not an attempt to predict the future, it is a description of what will happen if X, Y and Z assumptions are true. In reality, human behaviour (which has an effect on transmission and outcomes), is very difficult to predict, which will have a impact on the model's accuracy. I think we can all predict that people will not behave the same way in a lockdown now as they did in the first lockdown but how can anyone know to what extent people will adhere to the rules?

Modelling can never exactly replicate reality and therefore no individual model will give a perfect description of the future.

Sometimes we ask modellers to produce ‘reasonable worst-case scenarios’. This is where the parameters of the models are chosen to generate a challenging, but plausible range of possibilities describing what might happen in a highly pessimistic scenario. For example, this could be a scenario of no further policy changes, with some assumptions made more pessimistic, such as the emergence of a hypothetical variant of a virus that evades immunity. These sorts of scenarios are designed to inform government planning for more extreme situations.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/introduction-to-epidemiological-modelling/introduction-to-epidemiological-modelling-october-2021

As for omicron being less virulent than delta, there is very little evidence of that. There is some - it appears to be less effective at infecting and replicating in lung tissue. That is not enough evidence to assume that it is less virulent and decide policy based on that. If we are wrong, by the time we know that, it will likely be too late to take action. As Prof Medley says, modelling that scenario does not inform anything. "Decision makers don't have to decide if nothing happens."

Furthermore, virulence is only one factor that determines severity of disease. Immunity levels (you need to take into account that different vaccines seem to provide different levels of immunity, as does immunity from infection, and immunity wanes over time), genetics, comorbidities (people having other diseases), age etc. You can't compare the UK to South Africa because our popuations are not the same.

FWIW, analysis of the data in the UK (Imperial) suggests that severity of disease is the same for delta and omicron here so far. That comes with a huge caveat that we have very little data so far so may be inaccurate.

It's also likely that transmission may well be higher in the UK. There are many factors that will affect transmission that are not determine by the virus's inherent transmissibility eg it is summer in SA (people are inside less, the virus survives longer outside the body in humid, cold conditions), restrictions, mask wearing (compulsory in public places in SA).

Nelson says that the exchange with Medley happened by chance and he subsequently invited Medley to talk about in a more ‘normal’ interview situation - I don’t know if that offer had been accepted
Puzzledandpissedoff · 19/12/2021 12:37

you know SAGE is almost right everytime and it clear to see that there gonna be right again

I'm assuming this is irony ... ?

chesirecat99 · 19/12/2021 13:21

Nelson says that the exchange with Medley happened by chance and he subsequently invited Medley to talk about in a more ‘normal’ interview situation - I don’t know if that offer had been accepted

Yes, Fraser saw Medley's tweet and seized a chance to ask questions he knew wouldn't get full answers that would get retweets, new followers and engage an audience he might not get in the Speccy, then chose to write an article full of speculation and accusations without any real evidence.

Either he really is thick or he is deliberately misunderstanding why it is pointless modelling a scenario using an assumption for which we have very little evidence (that omicron is less virulent) or make policy based on best case scenarios.

It would be a waste of my time to plan (model) a budget on the possibility that I might win the lottery but sensible to plan for the fact that my boiler or car might break down. Even more sensible if my engine has been making funny noises (ie I have some data). Of course, if I do win the lottery, then I can change my budget but, until that time, it is pointless doing the sums. I need to put money away for a rainy day because it will be too late to do that if the funny noise turns out to be something serious, and I haven't won the lottery...

GoldenOmber · 19/12/2021 13:50

It would be a waste of my time to plan (model) a budget on the possibility that I might win the lottery but sensible to plan for the fact that my boiler or car might break down.

And yet, if your planning for a broken boiler was getting regularly reported in the national press as "chesirecat99 predicts DISASTER as boiler to FAIL before February!" - that wouldn't be you doing anything wrong by planning, but it would be the sign that something has gone very wrong somewhere in how it's getting communicated to the public.

SAGE modelling shouldn't be getting reported to the public as "SAGE predicts scary graph!" rather than "SAGE predicts scary graph is what would happen if x and y and z were true and we did a combination of a and b and c about it." But it absolutely does get reported that way, and it has for a long time now. That is a real problem, and it certainly doesn't imply nefariousness on the part of SAGE, but neither is it the fault of the public for being 'thick'.

HarrietteNightingale · 19/12/2021 13:59

SAGE modelling shouldn't be getting reported to the public as "SAGE predicts scary graph!" rather than "SAGE predicts scary graph is what would happen if x and y and z were true and we did a combination of a and b and c about it." But it absolutely does get reported that way, and it has for a long time now. That is a real problem, and it certainly doesn't imply nefariousness on the part of SAGE, but neither is it the fault of the public for being 'thick'.

Completely agree.

chesirecat99 · 19/12/2021 14:10

Maybe, @GoldenOmber, but that's not really relevant to OP's first post:

SAGE only gives govt the bad scenarios…

It turns out that the Government uses the pessimistic SAGE models to make decisions without evaluating their probability or context

They have only given the government models of the worst scenarios, not what happens if omicron is a mild disease

You don't need to know in detail what will happen in the best case scenario other than it will be "better" when deciding what actions to take. You can't take action based on the best case scenario unless you know it is a certainty.

GoldenOmber · 19/12/2021 14:16

but that's not really relevant to OP's first post:

It's relevant to the situation (and the Twitter thread) that the OP's talking about, though.

No I don't think SAGE are up to no good, or that the government are secretly prompting them to make lockdowns inevitable. But given the total failure of communications around this, and the quite dismissive response to it in a lot of places, I can see why people are going to end up feeling they were lied to and tricked.

IWannaWishYouANutNutsChristmas · 19/12/2021 14:27

I haven't read the thread.

I also haven't read the latest SAGE modelling either.

But - has anybody on here actually looked at it?

Because I've glanced and there is definitely modelling for more or less positive impacts of the unknowns such as lower or higher virulence and the effects of boosters. See pics:

SAGE only gives govt the bad scenarios…..
SAGE only gives govt the bad scenarios…..
HoardingSamphireSaurus · 19/12/2021 14:32

@TheKeatingFive

The problem is they don’t know YET if it’s a mild disease so is it not best to air on the side of caution

If you're modelling, you model all possible / plausible scenarios, not just the ones designed to scare the shit out of people.

They do. They collate quite a few models from various institutions.

That these are not reported is down to the press. They are all available to read, like the ONS data.

IWannaWishYouANutNutsChristmas · 19/12/2021 14:42

And of course there was this decision tree from a while ago which gives a range of date options for new covid measures depending on how high the government is prepared to let hospital admissions get, and how effective the vaccines are at preventing severe disease:

SAGE only gives govt the bad scenarios…..
110APiccadilly · 19/12/2021 14:48

On who was asking for this, I'm not sure it was the government. Prof. Medley said "policy team," which could just as easily be the civil service. I'm not saying it was, I'm saying there are two possibilities here.

chesirecat99 · 19/12/2021 14:54

But given the total failure of communications around this, and the quite dismissive response to it in a lot of places, I can see why people are going to end up feeling they were lied to and tricked.

Actually, I don't think it is that badly reported by the media. If you read the articles fully, it is clear eg the article below states that it is the worst case scenario over and over again. The problem is that most people only remember the headlines and that Neil Ferguson can't keep his pants on.

www.independent.co.uk/news/health/covid-omicron-sage-modelling-deaths-latest-b1978342.html

TheKeatingFive · 19/12/2021 14:58

They do. They collate quite a few models from various institutions.

No, they expressly didn't ask Sage to do this.

Why would they ask someone else to do a slightly different job they asked of Sage? That's Sage's role.

People should really read the exchange, as there's a lot of misunderstanding on this thread.

Chessie678 · 19/12/2021 15:04

We certainly don’t model the worst case scenario for the effects of lockdown (which would be completely catastrophic). No one has been asked to do that so far as I know.

I don’t really see why we should act based on the most pessimistic covid scenario and just assume that the effects of lockdown will probably be less bad based on zero analysis. If you take that approach you will always conclude that lockdown is the correct response because you’ve only taken one side of the equation into account.

And the government doesn’t make most decisions on a worst case scenario basis either. We plan policing and social care resources etc based on a reasonable estimate of need for them.

MereDintofPandiculation · 19/12/2021 15:04

@HarrietteNightingale

SAGE modelling shouldn't be getting reported to the public as "SAGE predicts scary graph!" rather than "SAGE predicts scary graph is what would happen if x and y and z were true and we did a combination of a and b and c about it." But it absolutely does get reported that way, and it has for a long time now. That is a real problem, and it certainly doesn't imply nefariousness on the part of SAGE, but neither is it the fault of the public for being 'thick'.

Completely agree.

The result of a society that regards maths as being valuable but only to those who are “naturally good with numbers” and planning a career in it, and regards maths as unimportant for everyone else.
HoardingSamphireSaurus · 19/12/2021 15:20

@TheKeatingFive

They do. They collate quite a few models from various institutions.

No, they expressly didn't ask Sage to do this.

Why would they ask someone else to do a slightly different job they asked of Sage? That's Sage's role.

People should really read the exchange, as there's a lot of misunderstanding on this thread.

We may be talking at cross purposes. Sage don't do all of the research. They collate research from lots of organisations, in the UK and worldwide.

Or I may have misunderstood, you second paragraph seems to contradict the first. So I would assume we have misunderstood each other somewhere.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 19/12/2021 15:27

I've read it again. The Sage head of modelling said he models what the committee asks him to model.

The rest of Sage has experts, committees that look at all sorts of data, other research, globally. They feed forward what they want to see modelled specifically for the UK.

I am bemused by the interpretation that this is somehow odd. It's what they do, how they are set up. Other models from UK are available and are not ignored, they are referred to often enough, even if you only listen to the podium talks. They just aren't the Sage specific ones.

GoldenOmber · 19/12/2021 17:02

Actually, I don't think it is that badly reported by the media

Well, I’m referring to the hundreds of headlines and articles on possible case/hospital/death numbers saying things like “SAGE predict”, “SAGE call for [action] to avoid”, “SAGE warn”, “SAGE tell government to,” and so on. Most of which are absolutely written and read with the expectation that SAGE is predicting what will happen.

Possibly some of those aren’t about modelling. But we have had 20 months of a LOT of SAGE models being reported as predictions and being understood as predictions.

IWannaWishYouANutNutsChristmas · 19/12/2021 17:06

We know cases are the highest ever.

We know the doubling rate is the fastest ever.

We know hospitalisations in London have risen significantly week on week.

What positive spin do people want put on this?