Why is immunity from actual COVID-19 infection never mentioned?

[BlibBlabBlob]

Just that really; we're all being heavily encouraged to have a third jab but surely those of us who had COVID since getting the second jab have just as much immunity (if not more) as those who haven't recently been infected but have had their third jab?

I had AZ in April and July and would be happy enough to get a booster jab now if I hadn't had COVID in October. But surely that was my 'booster'? The third jab isn't specifically targeted at Omicron, so wild infection (presumably with Delta) has surely given me all the immune boost I need for the next few months?

Am still not 100% after actual COVID, I saw somewhere that it could be 12 weeks to fully recover (not including proper Long COVID of course). Not keen to have another jab yet because (a) I don't think it will give me any additional immunity at this point in time, (b) I'm worried about assaulting my immune system again while still getting over wild COVID, and (c) the first two jabs made me very ill and I selfishly don't fancy being bedridden again over Christmas.

Can it really be the case that having actually had COVID recently doesn't make the blindest bit of difference to immunity levels, but somehow a third jab (which isn't tailored specifically to Omicron, of course) will do what natural infection cannot?

Or is it just that if there is any deviation from the 'get your jab NOW' messaging, there is fear that the booster campaign will be harmed?

@middleager I am 44.

@heldinadream if you can direct me to sources where immunologists are talking about immunity levels in middle-aged women who reacted badly to AZ jabs and then got COVID and are still suffering from it to some extent, please do! The advice I can hunt down online is not specific enough and I can hardly bug a GP for answers when even getting them to investigate blood-clot-like unexplained bruising is taking forever. Hence posting on here. I can confirm that none of my opinions - on anything! - are based on what Gove says. :-)

@Yellow85 can I ask why it never occurred to you to delay your booster? Did you not feel that your actual infection counted for anything in terms of immunity going forward? Why not?

@AwkwardPaws27

It's patchy how long it lasts after infection. My MIL had covid in the first wave & was tested for antibodies as part of a study 3 months later - she had none, despite definitely having covid.

Antibodies don't hang around in the blood forever, its memory T cells which are important too, they produce antibodies on reinfection

I am interested in natural immunity too.

I live in France where you are currently considered to be "fully vaccinated" if you have had covid plus 1 dose of vaccine. It is the same in Switzerland.

So there doesn't seem to be a consensus on the subject.

I am very wary of the rather gung ho approach that we are seeing to covid vaccination with regards to revaccinating people who reacted unusually to primary doses.

Same thing with vaccinating someone who is ill or has recently had the disease. In the past it was generally not considered a good idea (or indeed necessary).

All this seems to have gone out of the window rather with covid vaccines (as have long term follow up in clinical trials before launching a product).

I find it worrying how many people will encourage others to get another vaccine when the poster mentions that they had an unusual reaction to a previous injection.

I hope you have a good and sensible doctor that you can talk to.

This is about where I am right now on the subject : www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00676-9/fulltext

Thank you @Beachcomber for that considered response, I very much agree with you that we have adopted a policy of vaccinate, vaccinate, vaccinate with very little consideration of whether more and more jabs for each individual is necessarily better in every circumstance.

I've just been reading through this article in the BMJ www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2101 and also this letter www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2101/rr-0 in response.

If the Omicron variant is so different to previous ones, rendering recent natural infection useless in terms of generating an immune response, please could somebody explain to me how another jab - which is NOT tailored to Omicron - is going to help?

And thank you @SummerHouse for your kind words.

No jab is “tailored” to a specific variant. They work to produce fragments of the available proteins on the virus’ surface that are the most likely match for the virus at the current time - but there is a decent amount of cross-protection across different variants, unless one has a dramatically different set of proteins.

They know there is likely to be at least some protection as the genetic sequencing of the virus and the action of immune antibodies in lab tests has some effectiveness, though reduced compared to delta. What will emerge through real time data is exactly what the likely loss of effectiveness is. But in the meantime reduced effectiveness across a population is much better than doing nothing.

Vaccines have a wide variation in effectiveness - some are near 100% but others are around 60% or lower (for example, the flu vaccination, because of the way flu viruses mutate). That doesn’t mean we don’t bother having them if they are less effective; some proportional effectiveness is still much better - a LOT better on a population level - than not bothering at all.

I would wait 12 weeks after a Covid infection rather than the 28 days advised, as long as you are able to get the booster easily then rather than
now.

I had covid about 3.5 months ago.

It was quite mild.
I've had two jabs previously. They should talk more about how previous infection is affected by omicron- I havent heard much about this.

1 in 5 people don't develop antibodies after a covid infection.
covid.joinzoe.com/post/covid-infection-antibodies-protection

I’m not sure how it all works as I’m not a scientist! I know a friend had covid March 2020 (wasn’t tested but had an antibody test in May 2020 and came back she had had covid) she then in December 2020 got covid again! I guess natural immunity does dwindle as much as a vaccine does maybe. She is now treble jabbed and so far this year hasn’t had covid! Her job traveling in and out of London mixing with people etc means she probably more likely to be exposed to covid. For her she feels a combination of vaccine and natural immunity has meant she has been better protected.

The problem is that having covid produces different levels of antibodies in different people, if like me you barely get any symptoms even before vaccination then you usually haven't got the same level of protection as someone who is quite ill whereas the vaccine is standardised. In your case I would wait 12 weeks after your infection as per advice

@gogohm yes I'm going to wait until at least mid-January i.e. three months from first getting infected. But the GPs are now texting me literally daily telling me to get jabbed (no way to opt out other than perhaps sitting on the phone for an hour waiting to speak to a receptionist) and the official advice has changed so you can have a booster just 28 days after first contracting COVID. Just doesn't sit right with me. But maybe I'd feel differently if I hadn't had a fairly negative experience with my first two jabs and/or felt like I had yet properly recovered from actual COVID.

[quote BlibBlabBlob]@middleager I am 44.

@heldinadream if you can direct me to sources where immunologists are talking about immunity levels in middle-aged women who reacted badly to AZ jabs and then got COVID and are still suffering from it to some extent, please do! The advice I can hunt down online is not specific enough and I can hardly bug a GP for answers when even getting them to investigate blood-clot-like unexplained bruising is taking forever. Hence posting on here. I can confirm that none of my opinions - on anything! - are based on what Gove says. :-)

@Yellow85 can I ask why it never occurred to you to delay your booster? Did you not feel that your actual infection counted for anything in terms of immunity going forward? Why not?[/quote]
For me, I kind of think of the infection antibodies as not a given or for an unknown period of time, whereas at least with the vaccine it could be a bit more defined.

I also thought it was a bit like throwing the kitchen sink at it. The more protection the better IYSWIM

I should also add that It was also in the back of my mind that a booster would eventually be needed for covid pass or travel.

I have also wondered why getting covid is not considered a booster as it does in some countries. When you get infected your body fights the whole virus but the vaccines only target the spike protein?

I had mild Covid March 2020 following a ski trip and was still testing positive for antibodies in September this year (having not had a vaccine). I guess it’s possible that I had it againcompletely asymptotically which kept my antibodies topped up but had nothing even barely resembling a cold since March 2020.

The difficulty is that immune systems are complicated so there’s no guarantee over the level of antibodies generated and how quickly they’d wane. Wide-scale antibody testing could be an option for prioritizing vaccines but doesn’t seem like something the government want to do.

This is quite an old paper now so there may be new thinking/research, but people who had SARS in 2003 were still showing T-cell immunity to Covid 17 years later. The difference between SARS and Covid is much greater than that between Alpha, Delta and Omicron so would be great to see some up to date research on immunity from prior infection.
www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2550-z_reference.pdf

Like you, OP, I've recently had COVID having had two AZ jabs in March and May. I'm going to delay my booster as I would like to stretch out the benefits as long as possible. I.e. it seems a waste to have the vaccine now - better to delay it a little bit to when my immunity will have started to fall. People telling you to 'do your bit' are being ridiculous. Surely it makes sense to let others with potentially much less immunity to COVID (vaccinated a while ago, no recent COVID infection) in front of you in the queue.

That's not even taking into consideration the way you reacted to the vaccine. In your position, I'd probably be wanting some answers before I went for another vaccine. I certainly wouldn't be rushing to get my booster. Good luck, whatever you decide 💐

I had covid in December 2020, then did my bit and got double jabbed. I toyed with not getting jabbed after having had covid, but didn't fancy being ill again (I felt unwell with covid for about 5 days - just tiredness, breathlessness and achey joints).

It feels never ending now I have to get triple jabbed. I will get the jab, but not rushing to queue for a drop in clinic. What's encouraging me to get the booster is whilst I think I'd get omricon mild, I don't fancy the 10 days having to self isolate with it.

I also had Covid in October after 2 vaccinations in May and June. Considering there aren't enough vaccine slots available it might make sense for people like me to go to the back of the queue as it were. As we should be better protected than people in the same age group who haven't had Covid.

I feel the same OP. I had 2x AZ and my last one in April. I also had a strong reaction to the first dose. I then went on to have a bad Covid infection mid October. I have decided to have the booster on Friday as I will hopefully get a pfizer. My DH also had Covid but had both AZ and Pfizer vaccines and his infection wasn't as severe as mine. He had his booster a few weeks ago as HCW no issues, probably 5 weeks after infection.

Public health clashes with individual health, that's why they never mention it.

They just need as many people vaccinated as possible because they have a public health lens, even though at individual level that may not be good sense.

I would have the booster within 8-12 weeks of your wild infection.
I had long Covid in 2020 and then strong side effects to both Pfizer jabs, especially the second one. Recently had my Pfizer booster and was so much better (6.5 month gap to last vaccination). Still tired, slightly sore arm but that is it.
I have been a proper close contact 3 times in the last two months to a Covid positive person pre booster and didn’t catch it. I think I am finally at the can easily fight it off stage.

However, I will keep having the vaccinations they recommend. This time I drank loads of water day before, ate plenty before, paracetamol, rest. Definitely all helped.
My conclusion from this whole pandemic is live as healthily as you can (exercise, fresh air, healthy diet, supplements) and follow all the vaccination advice.

If the Omicron variant is so different to previous ones, rendering recent natural infection useless in terms of generating an immune response, please could somebody explain to me how another jab - which is NOT tailored to Omicron - is going to help?

I don’t think previous infection is ‘useless’ against omicron. SA have seen an increase in reinfections compared to delta but they’ve still said that they think previous infection/vaccination is what is helping to prevent serious illness/hospitalisation this time.

@bumbleymummy I definitely don't think that previous infection is 'useless', but that seems to be the opinion of many on here and as @hamstersarse says the public health messaging is not - by necessity - always consistent with the needs of individuals.

I am genuinely stunned that anyone would suggest I queue up for a booster so soon after having wild COVID and given I haven't even finished recovering from it fully yet. I understand the 'throw the kitchen sink at it' viewpoint but am not confident that it is the right decision for me personally.

@BlibBlabBlob

Thank you *@Beachcomber* for that considered response, I very much agree with you that we have adopted a policy of vaccinate, vaccinate, vaccinate with very little consideration of whether more and more jabs for each individual is necessarily better in every circumstance.

I've just been reading through this article in the BMJ www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2101 and also this letter www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2101/rr-0 in response.

If the Omicron variant is so different to previous ones, rendering recent natural infection useless in terms of generating an immune response, please could somebody explain to me how another jab - which is NOT tailored to Omicron - is going to help?

Thanks for those links they are really interesting and I'm glad that there are scientists who are thinking about natural immunity and asking important questions.

I think there is an awful lot that we just don't know yet and anyone claiming with certainly that "vaccine immunity is better" or "X number of people are not immune after infection" is to be taken with a big pinch of salt.

Measuring antibodies is not measuring immunity. And very high antibodies is not always a good thing. Sometimes less is more with the human body (inflammation, allergic responses, autoimmunity, etc). I hope that there are scientists who rather than applauding the fact that vaccination post infection stimulates very high levels of antibodies is asking if that is actually a good thing (or a necessary thing).