To remove DD from school?

[IsolateAndTestAgain]

DD is 7, in the last 4 weeks she’s been a close contact for +ive cases of covid 4 times, today an hour after dropping her at school I got a call to pick her up as a close contact to go for a test. School will not let her back until she has a negative pcr, I’ve tried it they turn us round at the gates. School have warned that they’re expecting another 2-3 positive cases from DDs class and due to the way groupings work DD is likely to be a close contact. And that’s before any of today’s people have tests.

Her dad won’t have her if she’s a close contact until she’s negative, my mum won’t isolate if she helps me with childcare she’d just take DD out for the day and I won’t be complicit in that. I’m a single parent no-one else to help. I currently isolate DD until test results come in and my mum won't do that at all.

I already only work school hours due to childcare, my work are getting increasingly upset that I’m halfway to work and having to ring to say “DDs a close contact again so I can’t come in”

l can work from home on all but 1 day a week but can’t easily work with DD here. If I pulled her from school between me, ExH and my mum I could still work my hours.

I can homeschool for a year or so.

I can’t lose my job, as I’ll lose the roof over mine and DDs head, ExH won’t have her in the week but gets the same texts and emails as me so will not have her for his weekends and I can’t hide it - I make up my work hours on his weekends so I can keep my head above water with work load.

So do I do it? I’m not a teacher but I just can’t carry on like this. 2 of her friends have had covid twice in 12 months so it could easily carry on like this all winter.

WWYD?

For added context both ExH and I are double vaccinated - ExH has to test for work twice per week and I'm testing myself once per week as a precaution, my mum refuses to get the vaccine or even test or isolate which is her choice but if I am seen as doing something illegal I could lose my job hence not letting DD go to her when she's supposed to be isolating/can;t go to school.

@Somebodylikeyew

Would be really interested to know what LA you’re in. We’re in a “special covid measures” area atm and this still isn’t the LA/HE guidance for our schools. I also think it’s bordering on illegal exclusion.

I’d look into this op

If you can make home ed work, tbh I think the situation in schools with covid is so dreadful, it is not a bad option.

BUT you have to think carefully about home ed, it is hard work and has to be done properly.

@shouldistop

Surely you can work with a 7yo there the odd day? Lots of people had to wfh with younger children there during the lockdowns. I'm not saying it's ideal but you can pay attention to her first thing in the morning, lunchtime and then late afternoon/evening and she could watch tv or play the rest of the time. And it looks like you only work 5-6 hours a day?

I live in a small 2 bed flat and cannot have any noise at all while I'm working due to the nature of my work so she'd be shut in her room for potentially 8 hours, I don't always get a set regular break so I can work 6 hours at a time without a lunch break, some days I barely get time to stop and use the toilet.

@Sowhatifiam

sometimes people can’t answer the phone immediately. What if they are doctors/surgeons/in long meetings.I have an issue with schools thinking (mainly mothers) can be at the school gate within 10 minutes. And no a close contact is not an emergency situation. If it was an emergency then the school would leave a message

If you are doctors/surgeons/in long meetings, how are you going to listen to a message?

Schools need to be wary of leaving details on phones in case of mis-dial, privacy, confidentiality etc. They could be leaving a message with literally anybody.

And why do you think it’s the school’s responsibility to manage sick children for extended periods? Why would you want to leave your sick child in school for longer than is necessary? Advocating that people should ‘not answer the phone’ is irresponsible and so potentially damaging to the children concerned.

If you want uninterrupted education for your children the. You have to accept that the best way to do that is to test, test, test when there is a case in a class. Once the teacher gets it, you have a supply teacher at best, an unqualified TA as a middle-ground or the class is closed. And whilst I work somewhere that has had few cases, we have had staff off for months at a time.

Maybe it’s time to be honest and say you don’t really value your child’s education and that you just want a childcare service?

Maybe it’s time to be honest and say you don’t really value your child’s education and that you just want a childcare service?

I'm a teacher too and I really dislike your goady post. She needs to work to live, and whilst a school's primary purpose is education, childcare ends up being a bi product. The OP isn't unreasonable to want her child in school so she can work. I would also be concerned about her education missing chucks of school constantly.

Having said that I do agree with your response in that parents should not ignore calls from the school. That's irresponsible.

I also agree that testing is the way to keep schools open. But that no longer needs to be test and isolate for close contacts. Just test and carry on unless that result is positive. Rightly or wrongly the gov approach has been to let covid rip in wider society - therefore there will be more cases in schools. We can't have a situation where close contact adults can go to work, socialise, etc until getting a positive, but children need to miss education. How can that be right?

I've worked that badly. I realise you weren't directly talking about the OP...but my point still stands. It's not unreasonable to want schools open for education and for childcare purposes.

I'm surprised they are classing her as close contacts. Here you have to have prolonged close contacts such as a sleepover if under 18

@Sowhatifiam

sometimes people can’t answer the phone immediately. What if they are doctors/surgeons/in long meetings.I have an issue with schools thinking (mainly mothers) can be at the school gate within 10 minutes. And no a close contact is not an emergency situation. If it was an emergency then the school would leave a message

If you are doctors/surgeons/in long meetings, how are you going to listen to a message?

Schools need to be wary of leaving details on phones in case of mis-dial, privacy, confidentiality etc. They could be leaving a message with literally anybody.

And why do you think it’s the school’s responsibility to manage sick children for extended periods? Why would you want to leave your sick child in school for longer than is necessary? Advocating that people should ‘not answer the phone’ is irresponsible and so potentially damaging to the children concerned.

If you want uninterrupted education for your children the. You have to accept that the best way to do that is to test, test, test when there is a case in a class. Once the teacher gets it, you have a supply teacher at best, an unqualified TA as a middle-ground or the class is closed. And whilst I work somewhere that has had few cases, we have had staff off for months at a time.

Maybe it’s time to be honest and say you don’t really value your child’s education and that you just want a childcare service?

I absolutely value my DDs education, thats why I don't want her out of school for longer than is absolutely necessary, the ability for me to work while she's at school is a positive thing, I want my DD to see that becoming a mum doesn't mean we lose our abilities.

I am going to speak to school and see if there is an actual reason for them sending close contacts home, it wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility for the HT to hide the real reason, if it's because someone in or working with the class is CEV or can't be vaccinated then I totally get it and will just put up with it.

@liveforsummer

I'm surprised they are classing her as close contacts. Here you have to have prolonged close contacts such as a sleepover if under 18

The letter says "We define a close contact as anyone who is unvaccinated and had close contact to the positive case for 15 minutes or longer - this is any contact whether physical (hugging, touching hands etc) or being sat near to the case" so could easily end up being the whole class - they're in different groups for English, Maths and Topics and move between each classroom for Maths (1 year 3 teacher teaches one set of children from the entire year and the other teaches a different set) so they could easily end up sending a whole year group home.

@Sowhatifiam im intrigued...what's happening with 'key worker' kids? Are they having to isolate as a close contact too? Or are they allowed in until the test is positive? Just thinking about that imaginary surgeon who couldn't answer the phone! They would likely need to cancel all their operations...

Is your mum vulnerable or worried about catching Covid?
If not the obvious answer is let her have her and if she takes her out for the day so be it. School won’t have her- wrong but not your problem. She doesn’t have to self isolate unless positive so do whatever you would do with her on an inset/ snow day.

Just seen your update. It's even worse then. They should be doing more to limit the number of kids potentially hit by this.

Also the gov don't define close contacts in school in this way anymore.

I think you will need to speak to the head to find out why they are taking this approach.

Are they providing work when they are sent home?

@ArthurTudor

Are they providing work when they are sent home?

Yes they send a pack of work home each time.

Personally I would inform them that it’s not required under govt guidance, and that dd would not be completing any work sent home because I had to work and she’s too young to self direct. I would also seek vopies of all risk assessments and proof that they took into account of the impact of the disruption on your dds education and mental wellbeing, then threaten judicial review of their decision.

Covid is endemic. People are going to have to just start living with it eventually.

She’s be back in school in seconds.

The school still should not be doing this. All the rules about sending kids home changed over the summer holidays for England, and whilst they can suggest she has a PCR they cannot insist on one at all. Public Health England should be working with the school if there are bigger clusters ( in general the level is more than 5 positive cases likely to have been in close contact ie in one class, or possibly one year group depending on how the school is organised)
I very much think these are illegal exclusions and you definitely should discuss it with school, and how it prevents you earning your living

@Sowhatifiam

If you want uninterrupted education for your children the. You have to accept that the best way to do that is to test, test, test when there is a case in a class.

Ironically it's your test, test, test approach that's causing the OP's dd to miss many days of school! You can't seriously expect that your approach will ultimately stop a child from catching Covid indefinitely... As such, all that missed school,!isolation and associated disruption whilst waiting for test results is for nothing!

It's not unreasonable to want schools open for education and for childcare purposes

Course not. We all have to work. I'm a single parent too - I have had a tough term so far with my own health and some isolation for my youngest and although old enough to be home alone, his disability means he sometimes needs support so I have to be there. My school is fed up with me, believe me, and I am a beginning to be fearful of the consequences of any further time off.

But people are shouting and shouting about the need for children to be educated but aren't actually seeing the bigger picture. There are many schools now that are having to close classes or partial year groups or full year groups - albeit temporarily - because of the lack of isolation and teachers getting sick. Or better said, perhaps because of the lack of supply. I have a close friend who is in week 5 of illness and no way near well enough to return to the demands of the job. It took me 3 weeks to recover when I had it. That's worrying when you're responsible for exam classes and the school can't find cover for your shortage area subject. It's no good for anyone's education, that's for sure.

I am tired of people pretending they care about their children's education when actually, what they want is to be able to rely on school to provide childcare. If people want to send in their children again and again without testing, they really can't say anything when the inevitable happens and staff are off and the school closes.

Just thinking about that imaginary surgeon who couldn't answer the phone! They would likely need to cancel all their operations

which would be dreadful. But honestly, I sat in a reception class yesterday with 4 children out with covid , one with her hand up her knickers for half the lesson, at least 3 coughing regularly, a couple with snot hanging out their noses, several with ants in their pants touching others around them and who knows what else?! Any surgeon with a child in that class probably shouldn't be performing surgery until they themselves have a clear test (I assume surgeons are testing daily anyway). The point is, we are all inter-reliant. If schools close because people don't test, the surgeon isn't working anyway - and potentially for weeks or months. Surgeon keeps working, albeit intermittently, if testing takes place and is more likely to avoid catching covid than without the testing in her children's school. We then all have access to emergency care when we need it.

Things are not good. We all need to see the bigger picture. We are all going to be inconvenienced one way or another over the coming months. If we do what we're asked to do, the more chance we have of that inconvenience being mild and annoying rather than massively impactful on all our lives. Again.

I absolutely value my DDs education, thats why I don't want her out of school for longer than is absolutely necessary

So then she needs to be tested asap so she can go back? If the teachers get it, you are potentially looking at longer periods at home.

[quote Warhertisuff]@Sowhatifiam

If you want uninterrupted education for your children the. You have to accept that the best way to do that is to test, test, test when there is a case in a class.

Ironically it's your test, test, test approach that's causing the OP's dd to miss many days of school! You can't seriously expect that your approach will ultimately stop a child from catching Covid indefinitely... As such, all that missed school,!isolation and associated disruption whilst waiting for test results is for nothing! [/quote]
Yes this is crazy

You could be close contact multiple times times by all the children. High disruption

We had Covid one ten day isolation and that’s it. And that’s secondary with LFT in primary asymptomatic may not be picked up

@Sowhatifiam I never said it was a school’s responsibility to manage a sick child for a long period of time!

If a child is a close contact then there is no reason for a parent to be rushing to school to collect said (well) child. The implications for the mother’s job are huge. This is happening time and time again. The child is not ill!!

@Sowhatifiam

It's not unreasonable to want schools open for education and for childcare purposes

Course not. We all have to work. I'm a single parent too - I have had a tough term so far with my own health and some isolation for my youngest and although old enough to be home alone, his disability means he sometimes needs support so I have to be there. My school is fed up with me, believe me, and I am a beginning to be fearful of the consequences of any further time off.

But people are shouting and shouting about the need for children to be educated but aren't actually seeing the bigger picture. There are many schools now that are having to close classes or partial year groups or full year groups - albeit temporarily - because of the lack of isolation and teachers getting sick. Or better said, perhaps because of the lack of supply. I have a close friend who is in week 5 of illness and no way near well enough to return to the demands of the job. It took me 3 weeks to recover when I had it. That's worrying when you're responsible for exam classes and the school can't find cover for your shortage area subject. It's no good for anyone's education, that's for sure.

I am tired of people pretending they care about their children's education when actually, what they want is to be able to rely on school to provide childcare. If people want to send in their children again and again without testing, they really can't say anything when the inevitable happens and staff are off and the school closes.

Just thinking about that imaginary surgeon who couldn't answer the phone! They would likely need to cancel all their operations

which would be dreadful. But honestly, I sat in a reception class yesterday with 4 children out with covid , one with her hand up her knickers for half the lesson, at least 3 coughing regularly, a couple with snot hanging out their noses, several with ants in their pants touching others around them and who knows what else?! Any surgeon with a child in that class probably shouldn't be performing surgery until they themselves have a clear test (I assume surgeons are testing daily anyway). The point is, we are all inter-reliant. If schools close because people don't test, the surgeon isn't working anyway - and potentially for weeks or months. Surgeon keeps working, albeit intermittently, if testing takes place and is more likely to avoid catching covid than without the testing in her children's school. We then all have access to emergency care when we need it.

Things are not good. We all need to see the bigger picture. We are all going to be inconvenienced one way or another over the coming months. If we do what we're asked to do, the more chance we have of that inconvenience being mild and annoying rather than massively impactful on all our lives. Again.

I absolutely value my DDs education, thats why I don't want her out of school for longer than is absolutely necessary

So then she needs to be tested asap so she can go back? If the teachers get it, you are potentially looking at longer periods at home.

And what about my work? Am I supposed to just give it up until I can work without being distrupted? That leaves DD in a worse position, I'd lose the house we rent, I'd possibly lose custody/residency of her to her feckless father who won't even go near her if she has a slight allergic reaction, at what point do I prioritise myself and DD?

I feel for the teachers and those with CEV family members, I absolutely do not want anyone getting seriously ill, hence my suggestion of removing DD for a few months or a year so I have chance of actually keeping my house, it won't be education as she's getting now, but in this case I'm seriously thinking something is better than nothing, and her having a mother who earns money and can provide the basics, you'd all be having a go at me if I said I'd had to give up work due to all this and couldn't provide a home or food for DD as I'd been sanctioned by the job centre and lost my UC due to the situation. At some point I have to think about me and DD and only me and DD.

I've done an LFT so DDs probably negative, and she's been to the test centre today, so hopefully she'll be back in tomorrow lunchtime for the last part of Children in Need day which she has been looking forward to all half term. This is the 4th time in 4 weeks she's been a close contact, this could potentially happen every week for however long, and it's not fair that my DDs education suffers.

I love her teachers, they're amazing and this year she's made so much more progress than I've ever seen, and she's happy at school and in a way her being a constant close contact shows she's a friendly girl who mixes with different children day in day out (which absolutely fits with her, she says she's played with different groups for every playtime and sat with someone different again for group work) but I also have to think "How the hell do I cope financially?" I can't force her dad to step up.

My mum doesn't believe in covid, so she would break the rules, even if DD was positive she'd take DD out of the house and spread it even further so if DD ever does test positive I am stuck inside for days at a time anyway. And you can forget ExH helping me with shopping or similar unless it makes him look good i.e. him showing DD off he's not interested - he'd help if she wasn't in school because he'd get more chance to show her off, he wouldn't help with schooling that'd be down to me again. Mum won't help in a covid isolation, we had it before I had my vaccines and she told me to just go out and do it myself.

But I am apparently using my DDs school and taking advantage. I take that, thats why I would remove her.

I think the childcare comment was directed at me OP. Because I dared to suggest maybe mothers (not fathers obviously they’re too important) may not be able to rush to the school gates the minute their child is a close contact. And why should they? Their child isn’t ill. Work is important. It isn’t anywhere in the government guidelines that you need to do this. The school is at fault here. Don’t let the projecting teacher get to you.

@Sowhatifiam

It's not unreasonable to want schools open for education and for childcare purposes

Course not. We all have to work. I'm a single parent too - I have had a tough term so far with my own health and some isolation for my youngest and although old enough to be home alone, his disability means he sometimes needs support so I have to be there. My school is fed up with me, believe me, and I am a beginning to be fearful of the consequences of any further time off.

But people are shouting and shouting about the need for children to be educated but aren't actually seeing the bigger picture. There are many schools now that are having to close classes or partial year groups or full year groups - albeit temporarily - because of the lack of isolation and teachers getting sick. Or better said, perhaps because of the lack of supply. I have a close friend who is in week 5 of illness and no way near well enough to return to the demands of the job. It took me 3 weeks to recover when I had it. That's worrying when you're responsible for exam classes and the school can't find cover for your shortage area subject. It's no good for anyone's education, that's for sure.

I am tired of people pretending they care about their children's education when actually, what they want is to be able to rely on school to provide childcare. If people want to send in their children again and again without testing, they really can't say anything when the inevitable happens and staff are off and the school closes.

Just thinking about that imaginary surgeon who couldn't answer the phone! They would likely need to cancel all their operations

which would be dreadful. But honestly, I sat in a reception class yesterday with 4 children out with covid , one with her hand up her knickers for half the lesson, at least 3 coughing regularly, a couple with snot hanging out their noses, several with ants in their pants touching others around them and who knows what else?! Any surgeon with a child in that class probably shouldn't be performing surgery until they themselves have a clear test (I assume surgeons are testing daily anyway). The point is, we are all inter-reliant. If schools close because people don't test, the surgeon isn't working anyway - and potentially for weeks or months. Surgeon keeps working, albeit intermittently, if testing takes place and is more likely to avoid catching covid than without the testing in her children's school. We then all have access to emergency care when we need it.

Things are not good. We all need to see the bigger picture. We are all going to be inconvenienced one way or another over the coming months. If we do what we're asked to do, the more chance we have of that inconvenience being mild and annoying rather than massively impactful on all our lives. Again.

I absolutely value my DDs education, thats why I don't want her out of school for longer than is absolutely necessary

So then she needs to be tested asap so she can go back? If the teachers get it, you are potentially looking at longer periods at home.

I don't disagree that children should take tests. I disagree though they should miss school whilst waiting for the results. If that's the 'correct' approach then tests need to come back quicker

I hear what you are saying about the knock on effects, but isolating healthy children isn't the answer. Numbers need to be lower in our communities as that will impact on school infections. And more mitigations in place in schools - the op is describing a fair bit of mixing, that won't be helping.

The surgeon example is interesting. Assuming they are vaccinated and doing daily lft tests then I don't agree they shouldn't be performing surgery. They can't wait for pcr results, it takes too long. How will the NHS ever clear that backlog if we did that? The balance of risk is probably greater not allowing surgery. A contact of a contact should be at work.

If your mum is willing to take her I would let them go out for the day. Roof over your head and then education are the priorities.

We are in special covid measures at the moment, this has consisted of going back to bubbles, no assemblies, staff wearing masks outside their own classroom. No exclusion for close contacts at all. Our bubbles are actually two class size (covers three year groups) so they are combining classes when the teaching staff are sick within the bubble.

So looks like it was an illegal exclusion, Headteacher only said it was "because of complaints" soon as I said I was calling the LA to ask if the school where in special covid measures including exclusion of close contacts she told me to keep it on the hush that she was allowing DD back into school on unknown status.