Australia/New Zealand New Thread

[Kokeshi123]

www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/pandemic-australia-still-liberal-democracy/619940/

Intrastate travel within Australia is also severely restricted. And the government of South Australia, one of the country’s six states, developed and is now testing an app as Orwellian as any in the free world to enforce its quarantine rules. People in South Australia will be forced to download an app that combines facial recognition and geolocation. The state will text them at random times, and thereafter they will have 15 minutes to take a picture of their face in the location where they are supposed to be. Should they fail, the local police department will be sent to follow up in person. “We don’t tell them how often or when, on a random basis they have to reply within 15 minutes,” Premier Steven Marshall explained. “I think every South Australian should feel pretty proud that we are the national pilot for the home-based quarantine app.”

This is... really really disturbing, honestly.

I grew up admiring (and, let's be honest, envying) Australians because as a nation, they always came across as a down-to-earth, fearless lot who had a healthy skepticism of authority while also being basically very civic/community minded.

What's gone wrong?

Yes people will occasionally die at home, this is because some unfortunate people suffer very rapid deterioration before they can seek help.

Of the 123 dead in NSW in this outbreak, at least nine have died at home. Including at least one woman in her 30s. That's one in 13.

What rate would you be happy with?

Because, IMO in a rich, first world country that has had 18 months to prepare for exactly the situation in which it finds itself, that's not something we should simply shrug off.

I think two things - firstly, how is it possible that with 18 months to prepare for the virus’ arrival, is our (very good) hospital system woefully unprepared? I know it takes time to train nurses and Drs but presumably it doesn’t take a year to train people to give vaccinations? So why didn’t we spend the time doing that instead of pulling nurses off normal work to give vaccinations instead, and then these being overseen by a handful of medical staff just in case.

But secondly, we’re here now, so what can be done NOW to solve this problem? We need a clear conversation on what is needed, where and what can be achieved right now to ensure that our hospitals aren’t overwhelmed over the next few months. Because if it’s happening in Sydney, it’ll happen across the country when the virus gets in there.

The blame game needs to stop or at least take a short hiatus while we deal with this.

To help hospitals now, id prioritise vaccines to older people. Even if that means passing a Pfizer over a 15 year old today. The vaccine is now officially not recommended on health grounds in the UK- the decision was announced yesterday. There is no reason to think vaccinating under 18 en masse will help hospitals, quite the opposite if they require nurses to administer vaccines.

Talking of nurses doing vaccines - that’s a bit unnecessary. I think they used nurses in UK but in Denmark (where i was then), they used trained lay people with a paramedic to supervise. I’m not sure how long the training takes (from recollection I believe they said it was 1.5 hours in Denmark) but yes that could be done now to free up nurses.

*not recommended on health ground to under 18s without underlying conditions that makes them vulnerable to the virus

There are so many people not working at the moment, I’m sure they could train up an army of vaccinators. I’d give it a go if it meant I was an essential worker and could send my kids to school a couple of days a week

I also agree with vaccinating older people and I would be sending vaccine pop ups all over the place to shopping centres, set them up outside supermarkets, other open shops etc. We are vaccinating well and quickly and hesitancy seems to have worn off a bit now but we need to get the older ones vaccinated to protect the hospitals.

@KowhaiWhy

Yes people will occasionally die at home, this is because some unfortunate people suffer very rapid deterioration before they can seek help.

Of the 123 dead in NSW in this outbreak, at least nine have died at home. Including at least one woman in her 30s. That's one in 13.

What rate would you be happy with?

Because, IMO in a rich, first world country that has had 18 months to prepare for exactly the situation in which it finds itself, that's not something we should simply shrug off.

I apologise if I sounded off-hand.

That is quite a high rate. I’m not sure they ever published the numbers here to compare. I’ve read a few things about some of the individuals who’ve died at home during the NSW outbreak — that they tended to be from migrant backgrounds and were perhaps afraid of the authorities/hospitalisation process. Is that correct?

Thank you @IndigoC :) I will happily acknowledge we have been in such a privileged position in Australia, and NZ too. We can argue and debate the details, but really we've not seen the heartbreak of many other places in the world.

Which does make it so frustrating that we had all this time to ... not make it different, but (maybe?) plan and prepare. But here, seemingly, we go. And we didn't even buy all of the vaccines we should have.

Yes, I think you are right in that many of the saddest stories here are migrant/refugee families - who don't want the police or army at their house because *threat. Understandable.

The removalists from six weeks or so ago, who went off to country NSW spreading the virus on one weekend , and mum died on the Monday or Tuesday. Iranian, I think ? (Happy to be corrected), but little English, no trust of authorities, these guys are in their 20s, their mother died while they were working and they were pilloried for "spreading the virus". heartbreaking.

Then two of the deaths in Melbourne this week - Eritrean women, one in her 40s, the other in her 60s I think. no known COVID in the house, until the Paramedics turn up to find a dying person with COVID, gasping for breath. Again - refugees, not inviting authorities into their houses, not even tested.

@KowhaiWhy

That is so heartbreaking. I do understand their trepidation. I was an immigrant living in the Netherlands when swine flu broke out. I didn’t speak Dutch, and I was intimidated by the thought of entering what I perceived as a very alien health system if I got sick. I remember thinking “I’m going to avoid that unless I absolutely have to”. If I could feel like that as an Australian in the Netherlands (two cultures that are really not far apart) I can only imagine how fearful a refugee from Eritrea in Australia might be. Swine flu turned out to be no big deal, but that sort of hesitancy is dangerous with Covid.

Yes, totally agree on the frustration re: lack of preparation in Oz. The extra time gained needed to be used to substantially build up healthcare capacity etc. I think some of that has happened, from what I read, but not enough.

"Pfizer is not recommended on health ground to under 18s without underlying conditions that makes them vulnerable to the virus"
@newstart1234 why is this?
In NZ it's now being given to 12-15 year olds

The Jcvi have said there is no ‘clear blue water’ in terms of health benefits from giving the vaccine to that age group. The vaccine carries a very small risk, as does the virus in this group. The recommendation has now been passed on to the chief medical officers in the four countries that make the UK (health is devolved to the nations) who will then decide on whether to roll out the vaccine based on a broader set of factors, not just health. Like education, social and mental wellbeing. I believe it probably will be offered to this group because of its wider impact, but the group of scientists tasked purely to come up with a medical recommendation have said that there is no individual health benefit in vaccinating this group as a whole.

I only meant that hospitals are unlikely to benefit in any meaningful way by vaccinating this group. If services are stretched the vaccine should go to the oldest age groups as a priority if the aim is to ease pressure there.

Thanks for the explanation

So according to this report 1 in 10 are being hospitalised in NSW:

www.smh.com.au/politics/nsw/more-than-one-in-10-people-in-nsw-with-covid-now-end-up-in-hospital-20210905-p58oyv.html

That seems remarkably high. But I guess a combination of Delta and a lack of any underlying immunity in the community is leading to this? Very concerning. Oz needs to get vaccinated ASAP.

I think the high hosp rates probably reflect families' desire to take the precautionary option for the patient while preventing spread to the family. But who knows?

www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/sep/06/scott-morrison-granted-covid-lockdown-exemption-to-visit-sydney-for-fathers-day-weekend

Seriously? Does this man have no shame?

DS had his second AZ jab in Sydney today - motivation being able to meet with a group of 5 from next Monday. I suppose when you live on your own, seeing people is pretty important! He had held off and extended the gap to 10 weeks from his first, which hopefully will help give increased immunity.

No shame. None at all. There are two narrative s coming out of Sydney atm. The official line is that the health system can cope. A high number of health workers are saying the opposite.

Notes have written an open letter to Gladys. www.news.com.au/world/coronavirus/australia/nsw-covid-icu-nurses-send-open-letter-to-premier-gladys-berejiklian-warning-about-staffing-levels/news-story/f7ed7e0faf68b27a2a124fa0731ebbb6?amp&__twitter_impression=true

[quote StartupRepair]Notes have written an open letter to Gladys. www.news.com.au/world/coronavirus/australia/nsw-covid-icu-nurses-send-open-letter-to-premier-gladys-berejiklian-warning-about-staffing-levels/news-story/f7ed7e0faf68b27a2a124fa0731ebbb6?amp&__twitter_impression=true[/quote]
1 nurse to each ICU patient?

Good luck with that. It was 8:1 here at one point last winter.

It feels like some people are almost rooting for the NSW health system to fail, so they can finger point and blame everything on Gladys? It’s a pandemic, it’s a nasty virus. It’s not going to be easy. At least a large chunk of the Oz population is vaccinated now. The U.K. did not have that advantage for the first 10 months. It could have been so much worse.

It does look like Gladys is being made a scapegoar at times. She's had to lead the first state through the huge mindset change from zero covid to eventually living with covid - all while veing criticised by other states etc.

Or alternatively that she is being held to account for her terrible decisions and messaging. The corruption case concerning Gladys and her former lover is coming to life again too.

@Blackbird2020

www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/sep/06/scott-morrison-granted-covid-lockdown-exemption-to-visit-sydney-for-fathers-day-weekend

Seriously? Does this man have no shame?

would be nice if he could at least pretend not to be exempt. We can't go 5 (.1)km down the road or visit Fathers who may be alone on that day, but it's OK for Scotty to have an interstate mini break. Words fail.

With my cynical hat on, is there a possibility he is trying to pull a Cummings inspired stunt?
Ie do something pretty outrageous and breaking the rules that atttracts everyone’s attention and encourages people to think “sod it!”
Cummings on a nice day trip out to test his eyesight was certainly a turning point in the U.K. ( unintentionally) with regards public opinion where people started to live a bit more and stopped being so fearful ( I.e spending money and helping the economy as they did so).
If I was an advisor that wanted everyone vaccinated and back to normal ASAP this is an obvious tactic. Worked somewhat in the U.K.
Maybe I’m too cynical