Why can't we manufacture our own PPE?

[Lifeisabeach09]

Just been reading in the news about delayed shipment of gowns from Turkey.

I know this stuff takes time to build a manufacturing base but why isn't the govt putting time, effort and money into making it in the UK? I've heard of Barbour and Burberry but surely there are other companies for masks, gloves and gowns?

Where is the mass call out made for PPE that was made for ventilators?

It pisses me off but I'm just venting.

Yes. But over the last few decades we had gone global, just in time etc.

So, at the moment we have fallen betwixt and between.

Retooling, setting up new supply lines, quality procedures etc takes time. Something we seem to have lost the idea of in this age of instant communication.

My husband runs a factory in the uk and had been approached by third parties to make stuff for the nhs.

The issue is - you need to be certified and he is not. And the government are not relaxing this rule and also no one has actually put in any orders or seem to know what's needed. And he isn't going to start making stuff that won't be paid for as he has overheads and staff to pay.

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The main PPE issue at the moment is medical gowns. These are not cotton scrubs that can be run up on any machine. They are made of specialist two layer, water resistent material (which has to be manufactured), and are then made on specialist machines, with heat sealed seams etc etc.

As some upthread states, you can't just start rolling this stuff out without accreditations and product specifications. I have heard of CEO's of trusts approaching manufacturers and stating that they will waive the accreditation, but the manufacturers won't make them without it, because they could, technically, be sued if something doesn't perform "to spec". It is a horrible catch 22.

Front-line staff are crying out for this stuff, but it isn't up to spec, what's the point, they might as well just wear a raincoat (like in Japan!!).

The fact that there would be a global shortage should have been obvious for weeks. But the government kept telling everyone there was no shortage of PPE, just a distribution problem. So now we are in this mess.

The government should have seen this coming, and started preparing for UK companies, large and small, to step in.

I wonder if the government under-estimated how much PPE would be needed. They keep quoting huge numbers, but if those huge numbers don't meet demand then it's not good enough. For example, these gowns we are desperate to bring from Turkey will keep the NHS going for three days. What then?

Because we hardly have any manufacturing facilities left, in this country. We don't even have the likes of Dewhirsts any more.

The main PPE issue at the moment is medical gowns.

It was FFp3 masks not long ago. Then HCPs were told surgical masks were sufficient to use.
It'll be something else (surgical masks, gloves?) very soon as healthcare only has finite stock.
Hence the need to ramp up production (and the certifying, contracts beforehand) yesterday...

Apparently it's cheaper for the government to pay to furlough our uk factories and buy it from our factory in Turkey...according to our boss after somebody asked him the same question as you did OP, during our weekly catch-up conference call on Friday.

I did wonder that, trappedsincesundaymorn.

Cheaper to let some of the masses die too in the long run, says cynical me.

I just posted this on another thread, but the UK needs to make PPE mandatory for members of the public. Once China did that, manufacturers realized that it would be in their interest to adjust their production lines to make masks as they would need to mask their workers before they could start normal operations again.

(I am talking about paper masks, not FFp3s.)

I don't know how this could be applied to PPE but in the US for components of and new tests for example, the FDA is allowing 'emergency use authorisation' (EUA). Wondering how this could be applied. It can't be such low quality it's not worth it, but easier entry points for manufacturing companies for example. Do we have equivalent in the UK?

The company that I work for our making scrubs for the nhs.

There was an article last week in the Times where they explained about scaled up production of ventilators in the UK and partnerships of different companies doing this with official approval.
They also said that as most of the UK textile manufacturing has moved to the Far East, it is difficult to find ready made manufacturing and assembling facilities as well as the right materials. To think that the UK used to have some of the most highly regarded textile industry!
Bourbon is now making gowns or specialist fabric for gowns and there was some other UK based company repurposing rain coats. There simply isn’t enough machinery, prime matter and qualified workforce to do the job here.
I think stringent rules should actually be adhered to.
In Italy and France they started making some PPE for a while now, even label names like Pravda and LVMH but Italy does have a lot of processing places as well as small production points. H&M was making something as well but I can’t remember what. They all manufacture for their own countries.
As regards breathing and face protection, it is not something you can simply repurpose a factory for overnight. It’s not just the individual elements. But even moulding and extruding machines can’t switch from one material to another overnight because they might break the machines, you need proper Safety Data which is approved so that workers are as safe as they can be. Most of the plastic and rubber prime matter would come from the Far East or America, that’s before you mix it all up and shape it into something. There is still a lot of manufacturing going on in the UK but nobody would want to bend the rules or fast track anything on their own patch, it would be madness, however lucrative a government contract might be.
So basically there’s a lot of plastic that’s needed of different grades and finishes, even for gowns. It’s not just some normal fabric that me and you could stitch together if we put our minds to it.
You also have to bear in mind that most medical staff would be quite reluctant to switch what they are used to, and that is understandable. This I also know first hand having been tangentially party to a supply of alternative PPE equipment to one of the UK hospitals. The trust big boss was desperate, did all he could to facilitate absolutely everything he could, the manufacturers were on board, it took the longest to convince the staff to try and use the new PPE. And I don’t blame them for one second. If it’s something new and has not been approved before, of course you stop and think.
Anyway, I reckon a lot of countries will seriously have to look at proper testing for reusing decontaminated single use PPE. It won’t be an easy process.

There's something I don't understand about PPE and I'm sure it's because I'm missing something.

Guidelines say that we all have to self isolate for 7 days after symptoms start. Hospitalisation due to Covid usually happens after day 10 (or later). So, how are the general public allowed out after 7 days but front line health workers treating patients who are more than 7 days on need full on PPE?

Most laser cutters in my network are making face shields. I looked into it but there was no clarification on non-certified use, as mentioned above I'm not willing to get sued. If the rules are relaxed, then I could potentially be making 100's of face shields within a couple of days.

OP I said exactly the same thing to DH when we were watching the news this morning.

Re longterm manufacturing. UK h&s standards, environmental standards, pay levels, maternity leave, holiday pay all cost more than they do in some Far Eastern companies where goods are manufactured more cheaply. Hence 'fast fashion' at wear-once prices.

As others have said. It's the fabric

There will still be plenty of skilled sewing machinist in this country, but we don't have the huge spinning and weaving mills for producing fabric we once had.

We used to be the largest textile producer in the world and that industry was still going in the 1980's but the frames and looms back then were nothing like the machinery in use in the far east now, which is super fast and computerised and PPE will be a specialised type of fabric production.

People always think of the miners when they think of the 1980s and de industrialisation, but we lost all those textile mills as well

Do we have equivalent in the UK? Yes we do. That's why the government and PHE revised the PPE guidelines to allow for use of some vet gowns and boiler suit types.

But, if you watch last nights press conference you will hear a number of journalists feeding the fear that this 'downgraded/inferior' PPE will kill more NHS staff and "aren't you ashamed?" type questions, even after it was clearly explained that nobody was yet using them, they were being given clearance for use, complied with WHO guidance and were being sourced as a just in case measure.

I heard a lot of journalists say that they had been told that PPE stocks were running very low, were at critical levels (my gods but how I have come to hate that term when used by self aggrandising twats like Peston) but NOT ONE had spoken to any NHS 'source' who had actually run out! Yet they continued to insist that sourcing and having the 'inferior' PPE to hand, just in case, was continued to be a the act of NHS murderers! None of them seems to be abe to listen, other than for that perfect soundbite.

I want some proper fucking journalism, FFS!

But, if you watch last nights press conference you will hear a number of journalists feeding the fear that this 'downgraded/inferior' PPE will kill more NHS staff and "aren't you ashamed?" type questions, even after it was clearly explained that nobody was yet using them

Not the case. The health and social sector have been using downgraded PPE to manage covid+ for some time.
Initially, PHE said that FFp3 masks were required then this was downgraded to visors and surgical masks. Now visors are not required unless the patient is coughing so it's purely surgical masks. Also, gowns were to be worn then PHE changed the guidance to aprons. Purely because of lack of stock.
Community nursing teams, rehab units and nursing homes have only ever worn the basic PPE because of lack of access to upgrades.
So those journalists @CuriousaboutSamphire might have a point.

Lots of con artists crawling around too offering PPE they can't deliver. Matt Hancock mentioned finding companies who offered PPE, then on closer inspection found out the business had only been set up a few days earlier.

I sit corrected regarding the use of that PPE, though, from memory, I am sure that is what was said. Maybe we are talking about something different? There has been so much obfuscation it's easy to lose track!

However, those journalists were not listening... They were baying for blood and a good headline. That 'downgraded' PPE is in line with WHO guidelines, in special circumstances... which these times surely are!

We have bugger all way or knowing what lines of questioning are valid, based on facts or real concerns. The media is in scary overdrive and it can be very hard fact checking the headlines, especially when anyone you might try discussing them with won't budge from the headline as written.

@Leafy yes! His facial expressions and body language last night were quite different. He looked bloody angry at some points.

We've been watching for the eye rolls, some of the non government speakers have been great. But Hancock's 'deep breath and stay calm' was very visible. I had hoped he'd do his own version of "We need to have an adult conversation about this". Something has to nudge some or those journalists onto a different track.

I heard a lot of journalists say that they had been told that PPE stocks were running very low, were at critical levels (my gods but how I have come to hate that term when used by self aggrandising twats like Peston) but NOT ONE had spoken to any NHS 'source' who had actually run out! Yet they continued to insist that sourcing and having the 'inferior' PPE to hand, just in case, was continued to be a the act of NHS murderers! None of them seems to be abe to listen, other than for that perfect soundbite.

BMA chief Dr David Wrigley was on BBC North West Tonight (last night) trying to score political points re the apparent shortage of PPE and even he admitted most medics/hospitals had enough PPE and it was only a small number of locations which were running short. Slightly different narrative!

Uk manufacturers loads, then sends it out of the UK...

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/04/20/exclusivemillions-pieces-ppe-shipped-britain-europe-despite/