NHS app to track coronavirus infections

[Shehz21]

www.politicshome.com/news/article/ministers-hope-nhs-app-can-help-lift-lockdown-by-tracking-coronavirus-infections

It would only work if 60% of the population dowloaded it.

Would you?

[QuimJongUn]

I honestly don’t care about my privacy right now

You should care about it more than ever right now.

I don't participate in any behaviour that makes me paranoid about being 'watched' anyway

Neither do I. Neither do the vast majority of people. That's not the point.

Where is the information going? How will our private details (including medical details) be stored, shared and used? Who may potentially have access to it - hackers and so forth?

Again, it's a no from me.

[DeathByBoredom]

"the only people who are worried about this (app) are those with something to hide"

The words of every dictator of any political colour anywhere

[midgebabe]

I think it is right be be concerned about privacy.

Although today you may have nothing to hide, history shows us that laws can change very quickly and what was once an innocent trip to the bakers becomes fraternising with the enemy ( Germany, 1930's, the Baker happened to be a Jew. Then questions asked about why your children were not part of hitler youth)

Also consider how Cambridge analytica were able to use peoples web activity to "nudge" individual peoples behaviour, effectively manipulate people

It's a risk I am currently prepared to take

[Shitsgettingcrazy]

It strikes me that the only people who are worried about this app are those with something to hide.

What a pile of bollocks.

So your employer wants to see everything in your phone? You just let them?

Outside pandemic you are fine with the police stopping your vehicle and handing over your phone, even though they donr have cause?

It's quite scary how easy some people will give up an privacy. Without even questioning it. Even without no clear advantages to it.

[Blueblackrose]

Google and Apple are working on an ultimately non app version - this article explains it well www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-52246319

[Casino218]

Personally I care more about vast amounts of people dying than I do some crappy information on my phone. There's absolutely nothing on there I would mind anyone looking at! Some people are kind of secretive. One persona for work but secretly they lead another life. I really don't. So I'm happy to use the app!

[PowerslidePanda]

So, if your app told you you had been in close contact with someone diagnosed, what do you then do? This is genuinely the bit I don't get. In S Korea you go and get tested, I guess. But we all know mass testing is not going to happen here.

When we had fewer cases, we were testing like this, and if we can keep cases manageably low, (i.e. via the app), I don't see why we couldn't again.


So now I have the virus I should be at home so why would anyone need to be alerted

Because you could have already passed it on to people before you started having symptoms and they now need to self-isolate ASAP (until they know whether they're infected) so they don't do the same.




I genuinely don't get it. If they decide to reopen schools entirely, won't any teacher's phone (or students for that matter) be alerting them constantly, given the numbers of people in the building (likewise many other crowded places : just one example)? Won't entire workplaces and schools be alerted? I see sometimes 500 people a day. Or does this app only work during semi lockdown?

Only if there are suspected or confirmed cases amongst those 500 people. I assume they'd also build something in to factor in how close you got to that person or for how long, to try and reduce false positives.

Although today you may have nothing to hide, history shows us that laws can change very quickly and what was once an innocent trip to the bakers becomes fraternising with the enemy ( Germany, 1930's, the Baker happened to be a Jew. Then questions asked about why your children were not part of hitler youth)

BUT THEY ALREADY KNOW YOUR LOCATION! How many times does this need to be said? If they wanted to recreate Nazi Germany, they could already do so without so this app!

[PowerslidePanda]

It's quite scary how easy some people will give up an privacy. Without even questioning it. Even without no clear advantages to it.

No clear advantages?! Saving tens of thousands of lives and lifting our state of lockdown is "no clear advantages"?! What I find scary is the number of people who are willing to make this living nightmare continue, for the sake of avoiding installing an app on their phone!

[PhilCornwall1]

I wouldn't just download it and use it no.

I'd want to know exactly what the app is doing when on my phone, how secure it is, etc. If it's being rushed out, it's probably got more holes in it than a colander.

[midgebabe]

Good point panda that testing levels may be manageable again once we get levels down

And I guess early oxygen treatment would also be more likely to happen as overall numbers needs g treatment would hopefully be seriously constrained making outcomes better

[midgebabe]

I will repeat, the code will be open source

As well as meaning we can tell exactly what it does, making code open source is a very effective way of closing down unintended holes

[PhilCornwall1]

I will repeat, the code will be open source

I'm on my way over to Github now

In all seriousness, I'd have a darn good look at the code though to see what's its doing and also for complete interest too.

[Shitsgettingcrazy]

No clear advantages?! Saving tens of thousands of lives and lifting our state of lockdown is "no clear advantages"?! WhatIfind scary is the number of people who are willing to make this living nightmare continue, for the sake of avoiding installing an app on their phone!

But as of yet, we dont know it will do that. That's the point.

Without testing, this wonr help anyone.

That's why I said 'no clear advanatges' because right now, unless it used in conjunction with other changes, its not clear it will save lives.

It could however, cause huge amounts of distress. Especially if just let's people declare themseleves as having covid.

Theres been hundreds of threads of people thinking they may have it, just on mn. Convinced it must be covid. Couldnt be possibly be anything else.

So an app telling people they have been in contact with someone who has it, because they say they have, probably wont help many.

[Delatron]

I know we are not testing enough now but the long term goal is more testing.

Therefore, if this happens, in conjunction with contact tracing then this may help save lives and help us maybe deal with the second and third waves of this disease without such a severe lockdown and subsequent economic impact. Loads of huge benefits.

We are not trying to recreate Nazi Germany. We are trying to save lives.
I’m pretty sure if you want to track my movements you can already, I’m on Strava, Facebook, I use google maps...

[TabbyMumz]

I dont get it. Surely if you have symptoms you should stay at home?

[Shitsgettingcrazy]

Therefore, if this happens, in conjunction with contact tracing then this may help save lives and help us maybe deal with the second and third waves of this disease without such a severe lockdown and subsequent economic impact. Loads of huge benefits.

Yes. And that's why I wouldn't download it without asking the questions.

That is all I am saying. It's worth asking questions, questioning what the benefits would be, what other things will happen to support it.

Not saying I completely refuse to download it. But I would have questions before I did. And certainly before I start declaring 'download, save lives' or 'it will save 10s of thousands of lives'

[StatisticallyChallenged]

According to the article on it I read yesterday it'll have two alerts - one for self reported symptoms in someone you have been in contact with, and another for a positive test.

This is only viable with testing in significant volumes - so someone who reports likely symptoms is immediately told where to go for a test/sent a home test/whatever. That needs to happen very quickly so that all of the contacts then isolate and get tested.

[soccerbabe]

how would this work for anyone who works and/or regularly has treatment at an NHS hospital with Covid patients?

[StatisticallyChallenged]

Tabbymumz there's two issues there

• it seems that people can transmit without being symptomatic, at least at a low level, so you want to be able to contact people you were in contact with in the day or two before symptoms appear
• in some people the symptoms are minor so they won't realise they have it. They're not going to get picked up through symptom reporting but might through contact tracing

[PowerslidePanda]

But as of yet, we dont know it will do that. That's the point.

Because nobody's using it yet! And if everyone has the attitude of "I won't use it until it's proven to work", then it's never going to work, is it? And in other countries, it has worked - it's a big element of how China and S Korea have got things under control.

[PowerslidePanda]

how would this work for anyone who works and/or regularly has treatment at an NHS hospital with Covid patients?

I assume it's looking at how close you are to Covid patient, not just if you're in the vicinity - so if you were in a different department, it wouldn't necessarily trigger alerts. Obviously it would be a bit different if you were regularly working with Covid patients (e.g. at Nightingale) - but equally, there's a good chance those people will have already had it anyway, which I assume the app will also take into account.

[Shitsgettingcrazy]

PowerslidePanda done be ridiculous. By looking at it and other measures, you can make an educated guess about whether it's going to help.

Independent experts can look at it. And they will. It will have projected success rates. When they know all the steps.

it's a big element of how China and S Korea have got things under control.

And last week it was claimed masks were a big part of SK and china getting it under control.

Let's assume you believe their figures. It's far to early to say they have made a success. Its entirely possible they have stored up a later larger problem.

Maybe it works. Maybe it doesnt.

It's worth having a look at and asking questions first. What's the advantage to just blindly downloading?

[StatisticallyChallenged]

A lot of those covid patients also won't have phones transmitting signals anyway and I'm guessing staff on those wards won't be carrying their phones due to infection risk?

[B1rdbra1n]

A lot of phone swapping and phones accidentally going on long swims
indeed it is a pretty simple matter to have two phones and strategically leave the one with the app at home etc but then we could find ourselves being 'geofenced':
qz.com/1822215/hong-kong-uses-tracking-wristbands-for-coronavirus-quarantine/

“As you walk around the home, the algorithm on the app will sample the signals of the home,” said Chan, who is also a professor of computer science and engineering at the Hong Kong University of Science and Technology. Each home has a unique set of communications signals, including your own WiFi network, WiFi from nearby, Bluetooth, and cellular networks. As the user walks around the apartment, the app creates what Chan described as a “composite signature of the home.” If someone tries to breach the quarantine by leaving their home, the app triggers a warning and alerts the government. Anyone violating their quarantine could face up to six months in prison and a fine of up to HK$25,000 ($3,200).

[PowerslidePanda]

@Shitsgettingcrazy - Oh, I'm not the one being ridiculous! Yes, independent experts will look at it, and opinions will be divided - as is the case for pretty much everything that independent experts look at. Apple, Google and multiple international governments would not be investing in this if they didn't have reason to believe it would be effective. And even if it wasn't, just the potential benefits of this, compared to the potential risks, make it a no-brainer, as far as I'm concerned.