Hospitals may only treat patients likely to survive

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Safe to say my anxiety Is now through the roof

apple.news/Ay4fqP_ODSsSYPGb_13nfpw

This has been happening in the NHS already for years. Why are you all suddenly up in arms about it? Just like the police have been letting low level stuff slide for ages too.

Fatted. No this absolutely has not been happening in the NHS for ages.
Intensive care units at full of elderly people.
People of sixty are usually still working - many of your GPs, consultants and many nurses are over sixty.
There has been a move towards discussion around advanced care planning for the very elderly and the ceiling of care people want and which is appropriate. Nobody is seriously going to think it’s appropriate to put a 95 year old with dementia on a ventilator if the get pneumonia but that’s very different from a countrywide decision not to treat over 60s in intensive care.
I’ve seen a 101 year old in intensive care. It’s about whether the level on invasive care is appropriate and whether their condition is reversible.

Well of course that will happen. I'm expecting a blanket ban on admissions from care homes for a start.

SubjectMatterExpert I can cope with the fact that she wouldn't receive active treatment but potentially being left to die in distress and pain is horrific.
Wishing you and your family all the best

I feel the same gerti it’s an unethical approach. Wishing you well also

When you strip things right back to their core, in nature it has always been survival of the fittest. We as humans are no different to the rest of the animal kingdom in that respect as far as I can see. We aren't above the laws of nature. This will be reflected in the way the Nhs prioritises it's care.

Am I happy about it? No absolutely not, my 70 year mum is very ill with a life limiting illness, her breathing is already compromised and we are all extremely worried whether She will survive this outbreak or even receive any treatment from the Nhs. But we all my (mum included) realise that she won't take priority over a young person or parent of young children etc.

Care homes are already struggling with self isolating care staff leaving them very short.
I also think we’ll see a blanket ban on care home admission to hospitals.
More concerning, perhaps is the homes becoming closed communities with bans on visitors being imposed (outwith the law) and effectively leading to our most vulnerable being in closed communities. Closed communities without external agencies or families visiting pose the highest risk of poor care and abuse.
I don’t think for elderly people the virus is the biggest risk; pneumonia used to be called ‘the old man’s friend’ for a reason.

@cushioncovers I expect the government to have a plan that reduces deaths and limits suffering as far as possible. BJ plan prioritises keeping the economy as healthy as possible and pays NO REGARD to death or suffering. It’s inhumane and unethical

@cushioncovers

Totally agree. Its horrific but I agree we arent above the laws of nature.
Years ago, alot of the people mentioned in this thread would have died- they are only alive today due to the intervention of modern medicine.

The NHS has to prioritise care in times like this as upsetting as it is, and I say that as someone who has lost both parents so its not like I dont realise how awful it is to lose someone you love.

We already deny ITU admission or ventilation to patients whom we know are too ill or frail to benefit, or have any realistic chance of survival. It would just be inflicting invasive procedures and prolonging their suffering needlessly.
If everyone becomes ill in the same few weeks, then no health system on earth could cope with it, and of course we will prioritise those most likely to survive.
This is the whole reason for the government strategy to manage the epidemic - delay it, spread it out over months if possible, so we don’t exceed NHS capacity in any given week, and we can all have the chance to be treated.
Then by the end of the summer, there will be enough survivors with immunity to mean the epidemic fizzles out through lack of new victims to infect.
The alternative is the silly idea of a “lockdown”, trying to stop anyone catching it.
Great - until the point where you “unlock” - and release a load of vulnerable, non immune potential victims, ready to be infected by the first passing tourist.
Lockdown only works if you wait until there is not a single infected patient left anywhere in the world. Otherwise, you’re straight back to square one afterwards .

@SubjectMatterExpert I agree, it's extremely unethical and cavalier.

There will be no palliative care, only fire fighting. You mentioned previously that people will asphyxiate, that's exactly it. I don't know why they're sugar coating it?

My dad died of lung cancer and seeing him gasp for breath, watching the o2 saturation decrease by the day and then by the hour. The panic attacks he had. It was horrific and horribly traumatising for him and all of us watching it.

He eventually was given drugs to put him into a coma, they might have to do this for people over 60. Who knows. It's frightening.

It is terrifying. I am high risk. My mum's risk is off the scale (83 yr old renal patient with no spleen and other serious chronic issues).

She needs to go to hospital 3 times a week for dialysis and I am really worried what will happen if she gets this, I am realistic at her age and health her life is already limited, but I just couldn't leave her to die alone.

When I help, I risk getting it myself/my own life and I have a child who needs me. Sounds dramatic but that is the reality many will face.

Of course the nhs has to prioritise

The POINT is the government taking a different approach could even out those needing treatment, so less people die 😡

Babdoc Sat 14-Mar-20 09:36:22
We already deny ITU admission or ventilation to patients whom we know are too ill or frail to benefit, or have any realistic chance of survival. It would just be inflicting invasive procedures and prolonging their suffering needlessly

And as a family, that's exactly what we have on my mother's care plan. But when that was written we had every expectation that she would be cared for to die with dignity and as little pain and discomfort as possible, at home.

That expectation is now gone.

It is not the prospect of my mother's death that scares me, it is the manner of her dying.

There are too many people who have simply not thought about the nitty gritty of what it means to so many families.

I saw a post on facebook from a provider of a babies music activity, encouraging people to book and come to the group. Lots of parents were replying that of course they would be there, they wouldn't let the virus change what they do etc I think they believe they are showing grit in the face of adversity when in fact they are displaying an "I'm all right, Jack" attitude.

Patients need itu and critical care beds for lots of reasons, accidents, post surgery, organ failure, burns. Patients in any area will always need to be fully assessed before they can be admitted to high dependency areas and if they dont really have a good chance of recovery then what can doctors do. Surely the staff are the highest risk group and no one would want to see them denied a bed.

GertiMJN, I do understand your fears for your mother’s end of life care. I’m in my sixties and live alone, so am under no illusions about my own possible mode of death if I contract the virus!
As a retired doctor, I know that pneumonia is certainly not the worst way to go - once your retained CO2 level rises high enough in respiratory failure, it renders you unconscious, so we will be mercifully unaware at the end.
However, what we are describing here is “worst case scenario”.
If we all obey sensible measures like hand washing, reducing non essential social contact, etc, we can aid the success of the government plan to stretch the epidemic over several months. In that case, the NHS would be much less overwhelmed in any given week, and normal palliative care more likely to be available.
Love or hate Boris, he is listening to medical and epidemiological advice and implementing accordingly. There is a refreshing lack of flannel and spin, and a calm stating of a sensible plan.

I understand, and thanks for that reassurrance re pneumonia Babdoc - I'm just frustrated that there are still too many people minimising and putting others at unnecessary risk. If the UK advice is correct, we still need people to comply with that advice in order to flatten the peak.

@Babdoc
As a retired doctor, I know that pneumonia is certainly not the worst way to go - once your retained CO2 level rises high enough in respiratory failure, it renders you unconscious, so we will be mercifully unaware at the end.

I really hope you are genuinely a retired doctor because this at least is reassuring information.
I don't want to leave my kids without parents and I don't want to see my elderly parents suffer in agony.

Hopefully when this is all over the NHS will keep the extra ventilators they buy so that more people in future will be able to get the care they need. I also hope everyone can take responsibility for their own and others health and well being, I am fed up seeing people coughing and sneezing on the bus and in the supermarket here, even if it's just a cold I don't want to catch it and I am sure no one else does too. Employers now need to start rethinking how they treat staff who come in unwell because they are scared of losing their jobs, losing pay and face disciplinary action for taking too much time off.

@ScarlettBlaize I agree 😡

Also reports from Italian doctors is that patients are NOT unconscious when they die; and are crying out for their loved ones. Very traumatic for the medical staff. I imagine many will have PTSD from this

Oh FFS why are people surprised?! It's not a new thing cuts to the NHS!! The majority voted for the cuts so fucking well remember Us who didn't vote for the halfwit who have to suffer aswell!!

Italy warned about this last week...yet we still have flights landing from Spain 🤦‍♀️

And where is your Boris...oh yea he's isolated while telling everyone else to wash their hands 🤣

Whose Boris?? He ain’t my Boris

The thing that @Babdoc doesn't mention is that before you reach that low level of saturation/coma you ARE aware and you can't breathe properly, you know it's imminent. That is frightening.

You don't go from being a-ok to coma ffs

Happyhammy unfortunately keeping the ventilators is a very simplistic way of looking at it.
We are 70,000 nurses short in the uk.
There are no staff to care for these extra patients on ventilators.
There are going to be even less when this hits our hospital wards.
When you remove the pregnant nurses, those with pre existing conditions, those over 60...you are left with very few.
These staff will need to be protected and sheltered from this horror.

Maybe BJ is busy meeting with advisers.