Rising anti swmtism in the UK....do we really need to crack down I n the Iran regime Hamas supporting mobs?

[mids2019]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwyxxjgdn94o

It is now being increasingly reported that there are multiple threats against Jews in this country as a result of wars in the middle east. How do we go about defusing tensions? Should the police take a more active role? Should we look at social media more closely for stirring up hate? Maybe we should be educating children more about anti semttism in schools as well as importantly saying the right of Israel to exist as a state. The tide needs to turn.

You're the one going round in circles. The Jews have the right to self determination. The only place they can have self determination is their country, Israel.

That'll be a limited curriculum. Humanities and arts might seem a little dry.

So Jewish people in the UK or France for instance are denied the right to self determination? Can you talk me through that a bit more, the UK is denying British Jews their human rights is that what you are saying?

Does that mean that only Israel has this magical 'right to exist' because Christians for instance can have self determination in many countries? So Israel is exceptional?

At least you aren't denying that 'Israel has a right to exist' is a belief not an actual right like some people.

All rights are man made beliefs.

Uh huh. I'm sure if a teacher were teaching students that Palestine has the right to exist in Israels place we would all just be smiling and nodding about how all rights are just made up beliefs and why shouldnt the teacher be teaching their beliefs as facts to the kids. What are facts anyway?

What subject would that teacher be teaching? Antisemitism ? (see how I got back to the thread subject)

The same one where they pretend Israel has a magical right to exist as per the OP I suppose, the one you don't object to.

Geography? Israel exists. Recognised by most countries including mine. Yugoslavia has disappeared, and Tibet, and a few others have been renamed...just the facts?

What does it have to do with magic? Its the same basis as any other self determination. Geography, history, language, culture.

Christians arent an ethnic group.

So you are sticking with your insistance that the UK government denies British Jews living in Britain their basic human right to self determination? That the only place in the entire world that 'the jews' can have self determination is Israel? And people think that antisemitism is the biggest issue facing British Jews when they are being denied the basic right to self determination? Israel is the only place in the world where Jewish people have basic human rights and we are here pretending that antisemitism is the biggest problem facing British jews not the lack of very basic human rights?

What on earth are you talking about? You can't just make things up.

Currently Jewish people in Britain are facing the fears and hatred that our parents and grandparents faced in Germany just prior to Hitler becoming Chancellor, at which point I don't need to repeat the history of the 1930s I'm sure.
Christians have self determination here in the UK as it is a Christian country. Personally I don't feel that Jews can claim a right to self determination here in the UK and that's fine - it's not their country, however assimilated the Jewish community is after making their home here since the mid 1600s. Israel is where they have the right to self determination and boy, is it needed now.
Is it your belief that Jews have no rights at all to call any country their own?

@SunnyAfternoonToday I’d disagree with that fwiw. It’s British people who have self-determination within the UK (let’s leave aside nuances around UK/GB/England, etc. mean). We don’t have it because we are Christians. We have it basically as an ethnic group, or at least as a defined population with enough magic ingredients in common for that to work, whatever those are. We’ve accepted our Jews as part of the British group/population over a long period – it’s well-established that there is no contradiction between being British and being Jewish. I would imagine there is considerable genetic mixture by now also, so this won’t be just conceptual assimilation either. So British jews do have self-determination but it’s on the basis that they are British, not that they are Jewish. Not to recognise that is a big risk to British Jews I would say, and I would be extremely wary of discounting the huge degree of assimilation that has taken place since the 1600s – it is very, very important to Jews’ place in this country.

Whether the above holds true for other religions is something that remains to be seen. That’s one of the reasons why I get so angry at how the last 25 years of mass migration has been conducted with such a lack of care. There’s been an assumption that you can have migration in colossal numbers, and do it fast, and for the new groups too there won’t be such a contradiction – but it hasn’t been stress-tested and it might yet go horribly, horribly wrong and quickly. The rise in anti-semitism might itself be showing us that it just isn’t going to work.

@SunnyAfternoonToday

Self determination is a really complex thing though. In the UK it is not based on ethnicity or religion, but geographical boundaries, mostly set by history.

Para 2 of the UN charter :

"To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;"

Self determination is a conditional right surely ? And in the context of the UN charter it really means political self determination. The people, as a collective, get to democratically elect a government with the politics they want. In the UK everyone with a vote has an equal part in the election of what government they determine that want. That is the right. The right is not for Jews or Christians or Muslims to have the exact government they want, because demographics.

Self determination along ethnic or religious lines is really problematic, because it can potentially infringe on so many rights of others.

I think with Israel, and happy to be corrected, it was nominally a Jewish state, but officially not. It was secular. Then in 2019, Netanyahu said :

"Israel “is the national state, not of all its citizens, but only of the Jewish people.”

Netanyahu: Israel is the state of 'Jewish people alone' | AP News

At that point, I think it could be argued that self determination was thrown out the window, because he was deciding to define it in a different way than the UN Charter intended it to mean.

Not true. Self determination per the UN charter is political self determination, ideally by democracy, where the majority government make the laws, but not to the detriment of minorities.

Article 21 of the UN charter on human rights.

1. Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
2. Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.
3. The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.

A British Jew/Muslim/Christian etc has equal rights to any other group. Self determination is being able to take part in elections. As a voter or candidate.

If someone says that any group is not able to take part in elections, when that group is qualified to do so, then that goes against human rights.

Your post seems to basically be a variation of "go back to where you came from" ?

Obviously not. Where did I tell the Jewsh people to do anything? The self bit is the giveaway, its a choice. The only people telling the Jews to do anything are the antisemites who apparently dont want them here (or anywhere else) but deny them their right to the land they came from. You are just talking about domestic self determination, within a state but self determination is also principle underpinning the creation of states. Something that often happens when groups of people are denied domestic self determination. The treatment of the Jews in the diaspora rather exemplifies that.

A legitimate state where? Inside the internationally sanctioned borders or anywhere they like?

Because actually, it’s ok to believe that Israel doesn’t have the right to exist in Gaza, or the West Bank, at the expense of Palestinians. because those places were declared as Palestinian territory.

we would do better to teach children that while all countries that do exist have a right to exist, they don’t have the right to invade or oppress others.

My sentence stood on its own and didn't need to be used as a springboard for other issues.

It's a simple enough statement of moral clarity to say that children could be taught that Israel is a legitimate state so has as much right to exist as other legitimate states.

Teaching a simple statement as fat without answering the questions that the statement automatically raises such as why are we learning that Isreal has the right to exist when we don’t learn about evey every individual country an their right to exist? Or, Why doesn’t Palestine have as much right to exist as Israel?

We are supposed to teach children critical thinking. Teaching children
that Isreal has the right to exist no matter what they do to other people is brainwashing, not teaching.

Brainwashing to say that Israel is a legitimate state so has as much right to exist as other legitimate states?

As they say on Mumsnet, give your head a wobble.

It is silly posts like this that continue to shit stir and incite hatred.

I think over the last few years brainless racist thickos feel they can be very open with their racism. They don’t have the brain capacity to understand regular people - in this case Jews are not responsible for the actions of the Israeli government, and/or the IDF. It was the same in covid, people attacking and saying awfully racist things to Chinese people, done by again, absolute thick as shit racists.

As much I don’t agree with a lot of what Israel (the gov) do I do understand this is not Jewish peoples fault, wherever in the world they happen to reside. I really feel for Jews, its awful.