Wasn’t Jordan the Palestinian Arab state?

[ConscientiousObserver]

TBH I don’t think the history of this conflict is very relevant today, as very few affected people are still alive from that era (and the people alive today and feeling the consequences of past decisions are the ones who matter) although the cumulative effect of a people deliberately designated as refugees for generations and the hatred that has fostered has attributed to what is happening today.

Many people say that the war didn’t start on Oct 7th. or even in 1948, as the Palestinians had their lands stolen and this why this conflict has raged on culminating in the present situation, and is also even used as an excuse for Oct 7th.

Leaving aside the fact that ‘Palestinians’ before 1948 referred to Arabs, Christian and Jews, and Palestinian Arabs were identified as and referred to themselves as Arabs as an ethnicity and national identity, didn’t 73% the British Mandate for Palestine, called Ottoman Syria under the ruling Ottoman Empire, or Syria Palestina, include present day Jordan, named Trans Jordan by the British, and wasn’t that created as an Arab State?

Therefore the Arabs got an Arab State covering three quarters of the British Mandate of Palestine which under the Balfour Declaration and San Remo conference was actually originally earmarked as a Jewish homeland.

Why is that not mentioned in discussion about the history of the conflict?

Why did the Arabs of the time need another Arab State when they already had 22 surrounding Arab States?

Interested after the government’s announcement that we will recognise the State of Palestine when we already recognised a Palestinian Arab State in Jordan 104 years ago.

Would a State of Palestine include Jews so will they be able to live there too with equal rights and protections in the same way Palestinian Arabs and Christians live in Israel? Is this what the UK government mean they will be recognising?

Just thinking out loud.

“Arab” is not just a geographic convenience like “European.” It’s a cultural and linguistic identity, often tied to historical Arabisation, not to a continent.

Before 1920, the vast majority of people living in what is now Israel and the Palestinian Territories did not identify as "Palestinians" in a national sense.

Before 1948, the term “Palestinian” was used for Jews and Arabs alike living in the British Mandate of Palestine.

Only after 1948, when the State of Israel was declared, did “Palestinian” become exclusively associated with Arabs who claimed national identity tied to the land. Before that they just identified as Arabs.

The idea of a “Palestinian people” in the modern nationalistic sense is a 20th-century political development. Before 1920, an Arab living in what we now call “Palestine” would not have seen themselves as fundamentally different from Arabs in Syria or Jordan.

Under Ottoman Rule the area was part of Greater Syria - a single cultural and geographic region including modern-day Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Israel/Palestine. Most would have called themselves “Syrian Arabs” or just “Arabs” from a particular town.

And Israel was Israel for a couple of thousand years before Palestine was ever invented. Your line of argument is ridiculous.

The simple fact is, Israel was Jewish, then there was lots of colonising, lots of successive empires and lots of opression during which Jews naturally became a diaspora and a minority it what was their ancestral home.

After many centuries of persecution and subjugation, including by the Arab Muslims, the Jews got an independent state of their own in what is about 25% of their original homeland and ever since they did Arab Muslims have been trying to murder them and take it back.

Arab land occupies 5 million square miles of earth. Jewish land, only occupies 8,000. They have over 600 x the amount of land Jews havem

It's okay for Jews to have indepence in a tiny bit of their ancestral home. It really fucking is. So please don't talk to me about what is right or fair because what would actually be right or fair didn't start in 1948!

It's time to move forwards.

Because every sovereign country decides who can and can't emigrate to it! Palestinians can have their own country, that they've been offered eleventy million times, and then can invite whoever they bloody like to emigrate there should they wish to!! That's how life works for literally everyone else. They don’t get special rules.

Oh, and, the total number of Palestinians alive today - both those residing in Palestinian areas and those living as refugees worldwide - is estimated at about 14.8 million as of mid‑2024. Possibly 30 000 to 100,000 of those individuals were even alive in 1948.

So most "Palestinians" have actually never set foot in Israel. I hardly think it's worth continuing to put their children through this living hell to fight to move somewhere between 8 and 100 miles to a place they've never bloody been.

I agree it’s time to move forwards.

I only started this thread because all through this war, there have been cries of it didn’t start on Oct 7th or 1948 and Palestinian land was ‘stolen’ by Israel.

I actually didn’t know Jordan was originally included in the area proposed as the Jewish homeland, due to having a Jewish presence for 5000 years, and the Palestinian Arabs had already gotten 73% of it for an Arab State.

There are so, so many falsehoods and logical inconsistencies presented here.

You talk about ancestral homelands from thousands of years ago but your view is that from the last 80 years ago people should just 'move on'? . If people need to move on from things happening even now or from 80 years ago, you cant hark on about things from before the middle ages. Either things from 80 years ago are still valid or if not then shut up about something from before that.

Jewish and Arabs are not mutually exclusive terms. There are Jewish Arabs.

It doesnt matter what identities were before 1920 - that changes. No one at all identified as Israeli then. The fact is that Palestinian is an identity now and was in 1948 and they live in land which is ilegally occupied by Israel.

It's okay for Jews to have indepence in a tiny bit of their ancestral home. Absolutely agree. What is not ok is the decades long illegal occupation of Palestine by Israel, the murder of innocent children, the slow encroachment of illegal, terrorist settlers into the West Bank, the ongoing genocide and the starvation of a civilian population in Gaza. That is not fucking ok. The defence of such heinous and evil actions by disgusting insidious narratives like Jordan being an 'Arab' state. If Jewish independence in Israel requires the ongoing violent subjugation of those indigenous to the land, that's not ok.

Ah but are there Jewish Palestinians today?

There was a Jewish population in the Palestine region before 1948, it increased with migration with land also being bought legally from the Ottomans with the Arab tenants being evicted and blaming the Jews! The Jewish people had a presence in the region for 5000 years.

Jerusalem, Bethlehem, Nazareth?

There was also a large migration of Arabs into the region pre 1948. Even a Hamas official said that Palestinians were Arabs from Egypt and Saudi on Syrian TV. You can Google it.

There was no governing body in Palestine after the British left in 1948. Israel declared one on the land they were offered, the Arabs did not and declared war instead.

Terrible judgement call for their people but almost 80 years later, they should have moved on just as all the other millions of displaced people in wars have.

This is not and never was about land though.

No. My view is that if you have a space to live in that's part of your ancestral homeland, that's fine.

Jews don't have ALL of ancient Israel, they have something around 25% of it. But they have a space, in a regional area they're indigenous to, shared language, culture, and a chance to live the way they see fit.

Many, many, many of them lost a lot - tens of thousands of Jewish homes and vast amounts of their land was siezed or destroyed in dozens of Arab countries, including by the way what is now Palestinian territory.

And I think they should get over it and accept what they've got and move forwards.

Muslims dont have ALL of the previous Ottoman empire but they have 85% of it and they'll have to live with that.

Arabs don't have ALL of the Middle East. But they have 99.7% of it and they'll have to live with that.

Palestine never existed as an identity, but the Arabs who lived in the area have the vast majority of it and they'll have to live with that too.

Just like they have a space, in a regional area they're indigenous to, shared language, culture, and a chance to live the way they see fit if they decide to choose peaceful coexistence.

I don't think there's any rational argument to be made that Jewish people should not have a right of self determination, independence and nationhood on part of their ancestral land.

And while Palestinian identity is a revent development I think the same applies to them.

And btw , “Jewish Arabs” (and i think very few middle eastern jews refer to themselves this way) refers to Jews who lived in Arab countries, spoke Arabic, and were culturally Arab because Arabs colonised the area. These communities had existed for over 2,000 years across the Middle East and North Africa - long before Islam or Arab conquest and yet through that entire time they were kept as dhimmi - legal second class citizens because they were not Muslim.

And now they have their own independence. Good for them and about bloody time.

Gaza and the West Bank were occupied by Israel due to defensive war won against Arab armies including Egypt and Jordan. They didn’t want them back and the Palestinians refused to declare a State.

You missed out the bit about Egypt and Jordan illegally occupying them between 1948 and 1967 and no Palestinian State then either.

You also missed out the bit about all the terrorist attacks on Israel and Israelis started by the PLO from 1967, which was actually created in 1964 while Gaza and the West Bank were illegally occupied by Egypt and Jordan so they didn’t need to be liberated from Israel then.

Hamas was only created in 1987 due to the PLO starting peace initiatives with Israel.

"decades long illegal occupation of Palestine by Israel" = decades long attempt by Palestinians to murder israelis and israelis trying to not be murdered.

No, they should stop occupying, besieging them and continuing to expand their borders.

You cant occupy a people and try to illegally expand your territory and complain that you are being attacked.

Look at the state of Gaza and the West Bank now and can you genuinely honestly say this is just Israeli's trying not to be murdered?

Its very simple: if Palestinians leave Israel alone, Israel will leave Palestine alone.

Israel made peace with Jordan.

Israel made peace with Egypt.

Israel tries to make peace with anyone willing. If people attack Israel, Israel defends itself.

Anyone looking at Gaza now would see how 'peaceful' Israel is.

So why is Israel bombing Syria? Attacking Iran?

Any knowledge of global affairs would show you how much Israel are the aggressors in the middle east.

A Clean Break Memo was authored by Richard Perle, Douglas Feith, and David Wurmser for then-Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu in 1997.
The Clean Break Memo argued that Israel needed a new geopolitical strategy, moving away from the comprehensive peace approach it had been trying in the region for decades. This was in response to the ongoing conflicts since Israel's establishment in 1948 and the failure of peace agreements. They identified the problem of the northern border of Israel with Syria and Lebanon, suggesting that comprehensive peace wasn't achievable any longer, and that they needed to "transcend the Middle East".
The proposed solution was a radical shift. The authors suggested taking out Iraq as a means to instigate an insurrection in Syria and weaken support for Lebanon. Ultimately, the goal was to defeat Hezbollah to secure Israel's northern border.
Notably, the individuals behind this memo later worked in the Bush administration, worked inside the Pentagon, inside the Defense Department.
The Office of Special Plans, a Pentagon unit created by these individuals, which allegedly fabricated intelligence to support the invasion of Iraq. This office had close ties with Israel, serving as a backchannel for alarmist reports on Saddam's Iraq that even Mossad wouldn't endorse.
The connections between the Clean Break Memo authors, the Iraq War, and their influence in the Bush administration is overwhelming.

They didn't live together peacefully. This is a bizarre modern myth that some anti-Zionists are pushing, and what's weirder, the true story wouldn't undermine the anti-Zionist narrative. Arabs were willing to tolerate very limited numbers of Jews as long as that population did not have political strength. The Arab leadership was extremely clear that they did not want a level of Jewish immigration that would result in organized Jewish political power. There were violent riots in 1929 and a full revolt in 1936. The 1939 British White Paper limited Jewish immigration (despite what was going on in Europe and the fact that no country was willing to take Jewish refugees) because it would not be tolerated by local Arabs.

However: Most Palestinians don't come from east of the Jordan. They're from west of it. They're not all the same population. That'snwhy the idea that the Transjordan should have been the Palestinian home was always a nonstarter.

Trying to merge the Iranian conflict with everything else to prove Israel is some irredeemable war state is bad faith. Iran has openly said it's dedicated to the destruction of Israel and funds groups abroad. It's a separate issue. You'll notice how much of the region doesn't like Iran either. Iran meddles in the internal affairs of Arab countries, and they're not liked for it.

Bad faith? Or just responding to the claim that Israel wants to make peace with anyone willing.

Netanyahu was a key instigator of the Iraq war. The claim that Israel is a peaceful actor just acting in self defence is an abhorrent fallacy. Any human looking at what it is doing in Gaza and the West Bank can see for themselves how peaceful Israel is.

Are you on shift now then?

"on shift"?

If your reaction to being disagreed with is to impugn my motives, I think you've told me more about yourself than about me.

So why is Israel bombing Syria? Attacking Iran

Is this question a joke?

What on earth are you reading?

Netanyahu testified before Congress supporting a regime change in Iraq. He was not a US official. He was not even an Israeli official. He was just a private citizen

How the actual fuck do you figure he was a "key instigator" of the Iraq war?????

He had no influence over US policy!!!

Lol i love how this gets you all riled up but you've ignored all of my comments about the murder of innocent children.

I was wrong saying key instigator.

I dont see the point of this thread. Is anyone genuinely saying Palestine doesn't get to have a state because Jordan exists?

I've certainly seen the argument on social media, but no one seems to be making it here.

But Jewish people have always lived there . And said land was originally named for them until the Romans changed it to Palestine in a deliberately anti Semitic move.
If you thought in a linear way, you could be capable of asking yourself why the Jewish Diaspora became a thing outside of the Middle East.
Put it this way; it wasn't because Jewish people were allowed to live stress free there, within the then Palestine or the surrounding nations.
I really am not understanding where the implication that the areas that consist of modern Israel and Palestine were free of Jews until the end of WW2 with an influx of European Holocaust survivors turning up and " stealing the land from "Palestinians"" comes from.
There were pogroms in Palestine pre inception of modern Israel. No Jews, no pogroms.
The Jewish " terrorists" that were part of the catalyst of the creation of modern Israel were not Ashkenazis rocking up from Europe looking for something to do after centuries of exile from their home.
So that puts a spanner in your lie of a lack of Jewish presence in the then Palestine.

Read a book and stop the shaking with rage that is based upon ignorance and wishful thinking that the Jewish presence that area has not been unbroken and does not predate the presence of Arabs.

Knowledge of geography, religious chronology would make certain things common sense.

If Palestinians of Arab extraction should have a right to return , why not Jews, the descendants of a forced Diaspora , with some of the ancestors of the Palestinian Diaspora being the "enforcers".
And since " time absent" seems to be your criteria as to if an indigene is not anymore, what is your time limit on Palestinian right to return before their return is classed as an invasion or infringing?

You are making up stuff that i supposedly said which I havent.

I didnt say that there was no Jews in Palestine before 1948. ( i think about 7 percent of the population was Jewish before 1948).

I also didn't say that i disagreed with the Law of return that Jews can come to Israel ( i just said that i didn't understand how that was fine but Palestinian refugees weren't).

The purpose of this thread is to question the legitimacy of a Palestinian state because of the existance of Jordan. That is a disgusting and racist premise.

What utter rubbish.

How is it racist to question why another Arab State, in addition to the 22 they already had, was needed (we’re taking about pre-1948) but one single Jewish State on historical Jewish land was not?

In the same fucking way it would be racist to say why don't the black South Africans just let the white South Africans have South Africa as there are plenty of other countries in Africa that are black majority governed.