Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Conflict in the Middle East

IDF publishes report into decision-making around October 7th

41 replies

Scirocco · 27/02/2025 21:43

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cyvee8vr7l1o

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-identified-but-ignored-5-warning-signs-of-hamas-attack-on-eve-of-oct-7-its-probe-shows/

OP posts:
israelilefty · 02/03/2025 11:20

I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make.

I'm not aware of heavy bombs being used on Israeli houses on Oct 7 (or indeed anywhere in Israel). A lot of the damage to Israeli homes on Oct 7 came from Hamas burning homes in order to force the residents out, and from the firefights which took place between troops and Hamas militants in the kibbutzim. We don't see bomb damage on the Israeli side of the border.

About the burned vehicles: a lot of these came from the Nova festival site where hundreds of cars were parked by festivalgoers - most of the destroyed cars were probably not being driven at the time. Regarding the fire damage: remember that Hamas didn't just use guns - they had also rockets, RPGs, grenades etc and were actively trying to attack people escaping in vehicles; damage might also have happened in the firefights. It seems highly unlikely that the Air Force was a major contributor to the damage given that they didn't even know the festival was a major site of casualties until many hours later.

Again, I don't see compelling evidence that an unusually significant number of casualties on the Israeli side were "collateral damage" by Israeli forces. Israeli forces in the area were vastly outnumbered on Oct 7 by Hamas militants right from the beginning of the attacks, and in many of the major sites of casualties the army didn't even arrive until much of the carnage had already happened and hostages had already been taken, as they got bogged down fighting on the way.

Polka83 · 02/03/2025 11:48

The quote about bombs being heavy for domestic situation came from the Israeli services.

»On October 7, much of the Air Force was carrying heavier bombs which could be used to destroy much more powerful damage to an enemy, but which were too large to use in complex situations with Hamas invaders and Israeli civilians in close proximity to each other. »

https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/defense-news/article-844008

Polka83 · 02/03/2025 12:55

Unfortunately there was evidence of people having been in the cars.

It must have all been extremely chaotic and terrifying.

https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-774511

israelilefty · 02/03/2025 13:14

Polka83 · 02/03/2025 11:48

The quote about bombs being heavy for domestic situation came from the Israeli services.

»On October 7, much of the Air Force was carrying heavier bombs which could be used to destroy much more powerful damage to an enemy, but which were too large to use in complex situations with Hamas invaders and Israeli civilians in close proximity to each other. »

https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/defense-news/article-844008

Yes, it's well known that the Air Force was not prepared for Oct 7. I don't think that it's implied that they used the heavier bombs inside Israel - rather the opposite - that the Air Force was reluctant to act where civilians might be in danger and most of the fighting from the air against Hamas terrorists inside Israel was done by helicopters which have much smaller guns capable of precision (during the Lebanon war we saw them around here a lot shooting down Hezbollah drones). And yes, I know that numerous casualties were inside vehicles; or vehicles were abandoned as people were injured and ran :(

Polka83 · 02/03/2025 14:07

Thank you for your points @israelilefty

It is such a delicate subject.

ScrollingLeaves · 02/03/2025 19:11

This is a report from Haaretz 17 July 2024 about a meeting Netanyahu had just had with the families of the young IDF spotter girls who had been observers at the army base at Nahal Oz, had been reporting on Hamas readying for attack, but who were ignored, and also left without weapons or protection.

Netanyahu said to the families that he was surprised to hear they were unarmed, as if he never knew. Can you imagine?

'That Amazes Me, I Didn't Know': Netanyahu 'Surprised' to Hear What Happened at Israeli Army Base on October 7
(Without links)

Recordings aired on Channel 12 News on Tuesday evening show how little Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu knows about what happened at the Nahal Oz base during the October 7 Hamas assault and about the failures that enabled it to happen.

Netanyahu met on Tuesday with relatives of the female IDF spotters who were killed at the base, and the recordings document portions of the three-hour meeting, during which the families called on the prime minister to hasten the establishment of a national commission of inquiry.

The meeting began with some harsh exchanges.

Netanyahu: "Good morning."
A participant: "For us, it's not a good morning."
Netanyahu: "We are from the same family."
Participant: "Too bad it doesn't feel like that."
Netanyahu: "I feel like that."
Participant: "I don't."

At the meeting, the parents told Netanyahu about how their daughters had warned repeatedly of a Hamas invasion. The mother of one of the soldiers said that her daughter, who had just finished her training and had only served at the Nahal Oz base for a week, predicted what was about to happen.

"She came home to us and said: There's going to be an invasion," the mother said. "When did she tell you that?" Netanyahu asked, and the mother replied: "During the time she was there. She said it several times, in fact."

Another woman at the meeting said, "For a month, they were telling us every day: 'It's trouble, they [Hamas] keep training.'" The prime minister asked her: "They told you that?" And another participant answered: "They told us, and we demand answers about this, immediately, not when the war ends."

Bachar
"All of this information, I'm stunned by what I'm hearing. I didn't know they told you these things," the prime minister said. "All of this material was supposed to have reached someplace that operates the systems, and it didn't happen." Netanyahu claimed to have discovered this information in a conversation with his son Avner

"The amazing things that I discovered, it was because my son was in combat intelligence – He says to me: 'Dad, this golden material, this pure gold from the spotters … I don't know if it's accurate, but you have to check it out. It's not going into a database.'" To which one of the participants reacted: "Then what are the girls doing there? What did you do when he told you that?" And Netanyahu replied: "We're dealing with it now, it didn't happen beforehand."

One person at the meeting said, "Our lives have been turned upside down. The only thing we ask is first of all for the truth to come to light. I want to see a national commission of inquiry. We all do."

Another person asked: "Can you give us your word that a national inquiry commission will be established, and not 20 years from now?"

Another woman at the meeting added: "It won't hinder the war. We are Likudniks who voted for you – Bibists. Two Bibists are sitting here in front of you."

Then someone at the meeting reminded the prime minister of his responsibility for the massacre. "You're the head. You are responsible. You command the army. You command the defense minister. The responsibility is on you. Accept responsibility."

Netanyahu answered: "At this time, I say to you: All the possible examinations need to be done, but to get into a situation now in which all these commanders and officers will take lawyers? We're in a war of survival."

The sister of one of the spotters who was killed said: "Everybody here talked about punishment. Do you know what punishment the girls received if they ever took their eyes off the screen? They got 28 days in military prison. What is the punishment for looking away that cost the lives of 1,400 slaughtered, and caused us all here to lose the most precious thing to us in the world? I want to know what punishment they will receive. Because if my sister turned her eyes away for a moment, she would have gone to jail. What punishment will all those who looked away for so many years receive?"

Netanyahu told the soldiers' families that he only found out right now that they were posted on the Gaza border without being armed: "I just asked Roman [Roman Gofman – the prime minister's military secretary]: 'Were there weapons? No weapons?,' now, just an hour and a half ago, and he said, 'No.' I said: 'How can that be?'" One of the participants responded: "You mean to tell me that you didn't know they weren't armed? That's a big problem in itself."

The families went on to tell Netanyahu about how hurt they are because the government has ignored them. "I've been sitting at home for nine months," said one person there. "No one has come to us – no one for the government, or from the Knesset. Nobody has come to ask forgiveness, to say, 'We're thinking of you, we're aware of your existence.'"

Another person added: "Not one person can come see us at home? For nine months, not one person can come and knock on the door and say: 'We erred, we're sorry'? Where's the respect? My daughter isn't on a par with Eizenkot's child? Can someone explain this?"

A further article that was originally linked is this one:
The Women Soldiers Who Warned of a Pending Hamas Attack – and Were Ignored
archive.ph/2025.01.19-230234/www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-20/ty-article-magazine/.premium/the-women-soldiers-who-warned-of-a-pending-hamas-attack-and-were-ignored/0000018b-ed76-d4f0-affb-eff740150000

ScrollingLeaves · 03/03/2025 20:40

Not only the intelligent, diligent, female spotters’ warnings about imminent attack from Hamas were ignored.

This is an interesting Haaretz report November 24th 2023 about another ignored Israeli woman, this time a senior intelligence officer.

Over a Year Before October 7, Israel's Army Had Insight Into Hamas' Plan to Attack Israeli Towns, IDF Bases
The group began preparing its onslaught from Gaza years ago, but Israel's analysis remained faulty. Two months before the assault, an NCO warned that the nightmare scenario could now happen, but she was ignored

Excerpt:

Some of the difficulties stemmed from a decision at Unit 8200, the Israeli army's equivalent of the U.S. National Security Agency, to reduce coverage of the enemy’s tactical communications. Israel apparently chose to rely on more advanced technology and mistakenly believed that it had a full picture of the enemy’s intentions and capabilities.

There was one righteous person in this story, an experienced, professional noncommissioned officer in Unit 8200 specializing in the enemy’s military doctrine. Her warnings jibe with the many warnings that the women spotters in the Gaza Division raised.

Over a period of months before the war, she wrote three documents warning her superiors about Hamas' intentions. A few months ago, she reported that Hamas in Gaza had completed exercises simulating an invasion of kibbutzim and border-fence posts.

In July, she reported that the group had completed even more exercises. In one document she added a horrifying statement revealing Hamas' intention to severely harm residents of the kibbutzim.

She concluded that Hamas had completed its preparations; part of her evidence was a visit by senior Hamas officials to watch the exercises – an event that the spotters also reported. Like them, she was ignored, even if she wasn't degraded or threatened as the spotters were by some of their commanders.

The NCO’s warning was passed on to senior officers in her unit and to field intelligence. A senior intelligence officer responded to her by email; he praised her work but added: “It seems imaginary to me.”

*The NCO stood her ground. It’s not imaginary, she responded. It wasn’t for show but an example of what Hamas could do. According to her, Hamas' level of detail and scenarios it practiced showed this.^

An older NCO, her commander, sided with her. He wrote that he had 30 years of experience and concluded that the exercise was for real, not for show. She added: We're marking 50 years since the Yom Kippur War. You can’t say it’s imaginary.

The NCO’s last warning arrived in August in a document distributed to a number of senior staffers in the unit and field intelligence. She felt that this was the right group to receive this information. She detailed the plan as she understood it and the exercises that Hamas had held.

Her conclusions closely conform to events less than two months later. She warned that starting then, the negative scenario could happen.

A third veteran NCO joined her in her warnings. Weeks before October 7, a senior officer visited the southern base where the intelligence had been collected and the warnings were drawn up.

He was shown the intelligence, but it seems the top officers at the unit and at Military Intelligence didn't give the statements sufficient weight. The veteran but lower-level professional got the impression that the senior command wasn’t taking the warnings seriously.

archive.ph/2024.06.18-052350/www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-24/ty-article-magazine/.premium/over-a-year-before-october-7-israels-army-had-insight-into-hamas-attack-plan/0000018c-02a2-de3d-af9e-0bf7901b0000

ScrollingLeaves · 04/03/2025 14:37

'Predetermined, Political Conclusions' |
Netanyahu Rejects Demands for Oct. 7 State Inquiry in Fiery Knesset Speech

Yarden Bibas, in a letter to Netanyahu read by a lawmaker, accused the prime minister of shirking responsibility for October 7. Before the session, Knesset guards forcibly blocked bereaved families from entering, dragging a hostage's father across the floor.

www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-03-03/ty-article/.premium/netanyahu-rejects-demands-for-oct-7-state-inquiry-in-fiery-knesset-speech/00000195-5ccd-dcab-a9b7-deff48e40000

EasterIssland · 05/03/2025 16:32

Related

Israel’s Shin Bet says October 7 attack could have been prevented as it admits fault and casts blame

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2025/03/04/middleeast/israel-shin-bet-october-7-fault-intl-latam

Shin Bet also blamed policies enacted by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s government as contributing factors, setting off a political firestorm.
Among the factors that contributed to Hamas’ decision to launch the attack, the report summary said, were Israeli politicians’ visits to the Al Aqsa compound in Jerusalem, “the treatment of prisoners, and the perception that Israeli society has been weakened due to the damage to social cohesion.”

Israel’s Shin Bet says October 7 attack could have been prevented as it admits fault and casts blame | CNN

Israel’s Shin Bet security agency has said it “failed in its mission” to prevent Hamas’ October 7 attack by ignoring repeated warning signs.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2025/03/04/middleeast/israel-shin-bet-october-7-fault-intl-latam

israelilefty · 10/03/2025 13:36

For anyone really interested in the content of the IDF investigation, this extended podcast episode with Amos Harel and Nadav Eyal is by far the most detailed I have come across in English, covering specific questions like how exactly the pieces were not put together on the early morning of 7 Oct and the worst failures at the Nachal Oz base. I’m usually not the biggest fan of Dan Senor but these two guests are level headed and really know what they’re talking about. It’s sobering listening.

EasterIssland · 20/03/2025 07:13

Not from IDF but there is meant to be another report coming about what happened on 7oct

The TV report suggests that the annex, which it says amounts to an “astounding indictment” of Netanyahu, constitutes a “possible further reason” why the prime minister is firing Shin Bet chief Ronen Bar.
The document, which is entitled “The Path to October 7,” makes clear beyond all doubt that Netanyahu’s policy of buying calm in Gaza, by having Qatar send vast sums of money into the Hamas-run Strip, was maintained “despite multiple warnings issued by the Shin Bet to the prime minister [ahead of the Hamas invasion] that Israel was facing a disaster,” the TV report says.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/report-shin-bet-probe-tied-oct-7-directly-to-pms-policy-of-sending-qatari-money-to-gaza-may-be-another-reason-hes-firing-bar/

OpheliaWasntMad · 20/03/2025 07:49

israelilefty · 28/02/2025 10:23

One of the biggest misconceptions I see on this board is that people are determined that there are two (mutually exclusive) camps and this is a kind of football match where you support one or the other. No. This is a complex conflict with (internal) political, national, and international elements, all of which are factors in the negotiations currently going on.

I'm a Jewish Israeli. I have lived here before and after Oct 7th, and I will continue to do so. Decisions about the future directly affect me and my family, and the conflict directly affects us: and yesterday there was a terror attack not far from where I live, somewhere I drive past pretty regularly.

And still. I refuse to see this as a zero-sum conflict. Everyone living between the river and the sea deserves better. Everyone deserves better leadership. The only way we will ameliorate this conflict is to make things better for BOTH Israelis and Palestinians. I'm not a wide-eyed idealist, and I don't think that a peace treaty is about to be signed with white doves flying in the air carrying olive branches. Probably change will be incremental. But both Palestinians and Israelis are dismally let down by the kind of attitude we see on this board every day, with constant bickering and sniping and attempts at any cost to increase distrust. Yes, there is distrust, and there is a long way to go, but people outside the region fanning the flames only empowers intransigent elements like Hamas and Netanyahu and the Israeli far right whose political survival relies on a no-compromise, zero sum narrative, and whose political approaches have been shown again and again to fail to provide security or a better future for their people.

I'm often, frankly, appalled where the bitterness and bad faith around this conflict is far stronger on this internet board among people who have never even been to the region let alone actually reading the languages so they can be properly informed, than it is among the real people on the ground living this conflict.

This is SUCH a brilliant response. Thank you so much.
I’ve been criticised on here for being too “both sides” and sometimes the back and forth sniping can end up forcing people into more extreme and divided opinions.
I’ve also been guilty of the bickering at times but I totally agree that it’s completely unhelpful .
I mainly come on here to try to learn something and I have learnt a lot from you ( and scirocco)

VolcanoJapan · 20/03/2025 09:39

@Scirocco

Thank you for posting. You show compassion to all.

October 7th and subsequent months have been dreadful for people in both Israel and Gaza.

"The catastrophic loss of about 1,200 lives when approximately 5,000 gunmen from Hamas and other Palestinian groups stormed into Israel, also taking 251 hostages in the process.
There are no dramatic revelations, but it is still sobering to see the military's conclusions about how it misjudged Hamas's intentions and underestimated its capabilities laid out in black and white."

ScrollingLeaves · 22/03/2025 17:51

israelilefty · 10/03/2025 13:36

For anyone really interested in the content of the IDF investigation, this extended podcast episode with Amos Harel and Nadav Eyal is by far the most detailed I have come across in English, covering specific questions like how exactly the pieces were not put together on the early morning of 7 Oct and the worst failures at the Nachal Oz base. I’m usually not the biggest fan of Dan Senor but these two guests are level headed and really know what they’re talking about. It’s sobering listening.

Thank you Israelilefty. That discussion lays out so many elements of the failures to interpret warnings of the imminent Oct 7 attack, including Netanyahu’s failure to react to four letters, very clearly.

ScrollingLeaves · 22/03/2025 20:40

This is a transcript of what Nadar Eyal in the clip of the discussion above, posted by Israelilefty, said about Netanyahu’s reasons for refusing to allow a National State Commission of enquiry into Oct 7 ( roughly about 1:09 in).

‘0ne thing they [the intelligence division] did right. They came to the Prime Minuster. They sent him four letters, which is highly rare, during the summer, three months before the attack, saying Israel’s enemies see this as a historic opportunity to attack and we need to do something about it. And then, really seriously, this is the question the Prime Minister would be asked [if there were a National Commission]:
You received four letters warning that the enemies of Israel are preparing and we don’t know the time and the place

I published that the head of the Shin Bet, on a phone call, because Netanyahu wouldn’t meet him then, for a vote on the judicial overhaul, made a phone call to the PM - and this is a quote - This is a warning as to war. We will not know the time and the place. And he’s the head of Shin Bet. He’s not responsible for the Iranians. And the question that Netanyahu will be asked, and this is going to be the most important question:

We understand Mr Prime Minister that they didn’t warn you that Hamas was planning an attack. We also understand that they didn’t wake you up on Oct 6th in the middle of the night saying, “Hey what do you think Mr Prime Minister that we should do?” But you were given general warnings. Strategic warnings as to the intention to attack Israel. What did you do? Did you hold one discussion with the security chiefs as to these warnings? Did you ask for more information? Did you ask for the intelligence bureau to have more reports about these warnings? Did you have another phone call with them?

After several consecutive deep, dreadful warnings - that were also published in real time by Israeli press because the IDF was so worried they probably leaked to one of my colleagues Yossi Yehoshua who is military correspondent of Yedioth Ahronoth and some of it appeared with Amos too - so if you heard all of this, what did you do, Mr Prime Minister? Do you think that a Prime Minister of Israel who receives these kinds of warnings can do - nothing - with this?

And this question - that the Prime Minister is going to be asked, if there is going to be a National State Commission - is exactly the reason, right now, the position of Netanyahu and the Likud is that they don’t want a National State Commission’……..

’You can’t have a nation with a political administration that does not hold itself accountable, as though this is a third world…I don’t want to say a third world country - but something of the sort. You need to have this kind of standard.’

New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Swipe left for the next trending thread