Middle East in schools - can it work?

[mids2019]

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/dec/14/parallel-histories-israel-palestine-schools-children-charity-appeal?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

I am split on this.

It is a good thing for young people to debate contemporary issues with respect and due consideration of historical events. It is good for a new generation to maturely consider different perspectives and the causes of conflict.

However is that Gaza Israel conflict just too controversial to be held in schools? It is shown on these threads with even well educated women the passions involved in the subject does lead to heated debate.

One suspects that it takes a high degree of separation from current events to look at this subject objectively. It is interesting that we can get Muslims viewing the Israeli perspective and vice versa but does this form of debate reflect the passions at the current time which are from dispassionate?

One problem with these debates is that if school children are allowed to debate the Balfour declaration the debate can easily slip into removing the legitimacy of the Israeli state and that is anti Semitic (hopefully those involved in school debates would be warned about arguments about suggesting Israel shouldn't exist as state).

Too soon in my opinion but see how it goes?

I suspect there may be many who would be upset with their children being encouraged to see the Israeli perspective for instance.

I'm not sure why you keep repeating this. Do you also think that there are some who would be upset their children are encouraged to see the Palestinian perspective?

Somr may argue that but they would probably be people who don't wish to see a resolution. There is literal common ground in the people of the region have lived there for a long time. You could trace when, how & why some have come & gone. There is common ground in religious terms as abrahamic religions. There is common grou d in humanist terms - everyone wants to be safe & have human rights. Etc.

The repeated assertions that parents of children who are pro-Palestinian will be upset/assume brainwashing etc comes across as antagonistic.

I would think there are some who wouldn't be happy on both sides, some on both who would be fine and some who would think nothing of it at all.

@Whatsinanamehey

Correct it would be good for children to see the Palestinian perspective and to see the benefits of a two state solution. I think it depends on how you define the Palestinian perspective in terms of territorial boundary? Can you discuss the conflict with sensible discussion about state boundaries when some will argue at least one of the states shouldn't exist?

I do think there will be section of pupils who wish to debate this complex discussion maturely and that is to be welcomed

However I think it would be naive to think there are not some students that think it is a time for protest and not debate. There will be some that this is not the time for discussion or debate but a time for highlighting the rights of wrongs of the current conflict and indeed having more wide ranging debate would be a distraction.

When we have such a polarised debate you would have to be so careful about chairing a debate. For instance people would speak about a Palestinian perspective but be careful about promoting the Hamas perspective as a proscribed terrorist organisation.

Simiarly for balance would you allow discussing about the Israeli need for security but not allow a position where Israel has historical right to Samaria and Judea. Israel to some extent being a religous construct adds a while other level of complexity to a debate which could easily go the wrong way

My son's prep school when he was there made sure every boy watched Schindler's List aged 12 before they left the school which I thought was a good thing to do. I would like all state schools as well to do that. I think the more information children can be given the better and I am concerned that some children live in silos out of school and even in it where everyone is from the same anti-Israeli culture. We need a huge effort in areas with high muslim population to counteract the awful things the children are being told at home. in many cases.

@Xenia

I agree absolutely but it is a real issue when the holocaust is denied. One could argue we should be working on the encouraging of all pupils to attend lessons on the holocaust independent of religion.

As well as being historically important it would put students in a good place to understand possibly some of the Israeli psychology when it comes to the debates about this contemporary conflict.

The issue at my daughter's school is that she is the only Jewish pupil and there are hundreds of Muslim children. So any time anything like this comes up something happens to her as she's literally the only one. The pressure on her is immense and I don't think it's fair to encourage more of that when Jewish students are always going to be such a minority. I hate the assumptions that Jewish = Israel but that's just how it's taken at the moment and I'm exhausted. As is she.

There are literally endless other things to debate that don't encourage children to isolate a tiny minority of people.

(Her current events class is focussed on this issue just now. She thankfully misses this class as she's in a dance cohort but has been attacked several times verbally and once physically after the students were in this class.)

This must be very difficult for her, Im sorry.

@PurpleThistle7

Agree. You could discuss the Ukraine -Russia conflict or the future of Syrian governance so why has this particular conflict so much thrall over young minds?

I do wonder in these debates though Guardian is proposing who would be willing to promote an understanding of Israel historically and geopolitically when the prospect of bullying is real?

I have said before children really have the ability to debate well and we want to foster undersranding of the world but is it really the time or place for this?

One fear I would have is that the debates are being set up not necessarily for an understanding of different views but for protest to make it's way into schools and an opportunity for 'education' into how mean and awful the UK amongst others were is setting up or facilitating the existence of the modern state of Israel.

The organisation which set up this debate is not purely involved in educating about the Middle East conflict but about conflict in general.

The aim is to teach young people to examine source evidence and debate alternative interpretations.

parallelhistories.org.uk

I don't think it is very fair to accuse them of setting up debates with the intention of enabling protest to make its way into schools.

Speaking as a parent of someone who took part in the debate referred to in the article I support the aims they are looking to achieve.

I accept the intentions may be entirely laudible but why pick this particular conflict where others may offer you by people the opportunity to debate e.g. conflict in Sudan or another historical conflict? There is no reluctance for children to understand conflict or to critically analyse source data but surely there are real dangers to this or at least problems holding debate?

for instance we would not wanting students looking into reasons for October 7th in a way that echoed the infamous 'nothing happens in a vacuum comment' as you are effectively pushing students down a line looking for justification for terrorism. It is a matter of judgement that students look at the Palestinian people's perspective rather than the perspective of Hamas whose ideology is repuganant.

in a similar vein you may have students upset or angered looking at contemporary evidence of the scale of the Israeli incursion depending on the scope of the debate. There is actually maybe a dearth of contemporary conflict evidence given the few journalists operating in Gaza and the real challenge of obtaining veracity of events in the dog of war.

There are reasons as set out in the original article that the GCSE for middle East conflict is abandoned as some students cannot accept facts about the development of the state of Israel and if you have students dismissing historical fact out of hand the basis for you debate in undermined.

LivIng a

I would like to be convinced such debates can be held in nature manner so can I ask what topics are covered in debate and how the source material is kbtained?

@mids2019

You can see all the material on the parallel histories website.

parallelhistories.org.uk/which-group-had-the-stronger-claim-to-the-land-between-the-mediterranean-and-the-jordan/

Personally I think students taking part in such debates and looking at these topics from both sides in a structured way and with guidance from those experienced in tackling the issues and managing debate is far better than leaving them to pick up information from social media.

@LivLuna

That is fascinating thank you and does seem an appropriate academic level for good history students wishing to debate.

However are you going to get a self selecting open minded group of students wishing to engage while those who get their information from tik tok will be wedded to their stance?

The debate seems important but you are encouraging debate at a time where there are visceral feelings in society and we have to set a rather sanitised academic debate against a backdrop of real contemporary death and destruction which is happening as we speak i.e. history in the making.

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk/oxford-debates-descend-into-chaos-as-students-shout-down-israeli-speakers-a8aza4r6

Let's hope the school debates are more mature and measured than students. Hopefully school children can debate with respect but I think you need strong guidance and everything said follows normal school rules.

I think the type of debate being proposed would have been great prior to October 7th but surely the current conflict makes this less academic and harder to debate? The organisers mention safe spaces but can they truly be safe?

I think you have to be very careful with this framing because you don't want a 'debate' that is 'you can (and must!) have a debate, but you cannot take viewpoints A and B'. By all means ban expressing support for atrocities on civilians, including brutal rape, like the October 7 attacks. But I don't think you can reasonably say "you may make the argument that group A (here, the Israelis) are entitled to this bit of land, but you may not make the argument that they are also entitled to this other bit of land." The argument may be challenged, but it shouldn't be banned in the same way, as it's not equivalent.

@Precipice

I agree and I think ultimately my concern is not about the debate itself and indeed the parallel histories slides do have some well thought out debating points that seem suitable for school children.

The concern is that some pupils don't want the debate and will think now is not a time for debate with such heightened tensions. Yes, there will be some that will wish to discuss the Balfour treaty and British imperialism, but equally there are those that will purely want a focus on the here and now including discussing October 7th and alleged Israeli genocide. It is the latter where the danger lies if the debate is held too loosely.

I think this is one of those topics where it is currently almost impossible to find reasoned, informed debate anywhere. My own kids have reported being challenged simply for their (Jewish) surname and would feel horribly uncomfortable to debate the issues in class.

I would favour more tangential approaches - teaching kids how to use evidence, the dangers of a goodies-vs-baddies mindset, discussing how a population can't be assumed to approve of its leaders etc.

Why do you think having school children watch Schindler's List is good and essential?