Lebanese Christians - are the marchers marching for them?

[mids2019]

30% of Lebanese are Christian in a historically Christian country get this seems to get little attention. These are Christians suffering in Lebanon and sorely dislike Hezbollah who have brought war into their country?

I understand the protesters are concerned with civilian suffering and death which in itself is reasonable but in reality are protesters aware of this? With Lebanon being such a diverse society do the protesters only have concerns about those of one religion or all the people?

From what I can make out this was perpetrated by Christians against Jews. Yet we only ever hear about Muslims. As a Christian I hold my hands up about the anti Jewish sentiments held by Christianity such as the blood libel.
But day to day life, amongst ordinary families people got in whatever their religion. After Zionism things did become more tense- you must understand why. (But Palestinian Jews still considered themselves Palestinian and had no interest in a Zionist state).

Please excuse typos

I think there are a lot of Lebanese who full well know that if Hezbollah hadn’t fired on Israel they wouldn’t be here now. Doesn’t mean they like Israel, who would? Israel is bombing Lebanon. Two things can be true at once Hezb is a malignant state within a state who decide Lebanons foreign policy without bothering to consult parliament or the army and that Lebanese see Israel as an enemy too.

I see a lot of “fuck hezb and fuck Israel”

Yeah hezb has been spreading the conspiracy theory that Israel want to take Lebanon. This is most likely not true, one it’s spread to make Lebanese think that the only thing stopping Israel from annexing Lebanon is Hezbollah whereas the truth is the only reason Israel has any interest in Lebanon is because of hezb. Secondly when they do take land they use it as leverage to secure peace treaties (like the Sinai).

The only time Israel has gone to Lebanon is when the PLO attacked Israel from Lebanon and when Hezb kidnapped soldiers and now when hezb have fired on them.

Christian forces aligned with Israelis during the civil war. It was Phalangist (christian) forces who carried out the massacres in sabra and Shatila, as revenge for the assassination of Bachir Gemayel, while the IDF let them in to the camps and kept the residents from leaving

I think many (most?) people in the West have pretty much forgotten about the Civil War in Lebanon, including the role played by Israel. How many remember the brutal massacre of hundreds of Palestinian refugees in the camps in which they were imprisoned.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/9/16/sabra-and-shatila-massacre-40-years-on-explainer

The camps are still there and living conditions are worse than ever. A perfect breeding ground for Hezbollah. Nothing happens in a vacuum.

This post is a huge reach.

Heaps of Lebanese don't like Hezbollah.

Heaps of Palestinians don't like Hamas (and even moreso, Hezbollah).

You can not like a domestic party/ movement but then like a genocidal encroaching aggressor more. It is quite logical.

As to whether protesters "know" that Lebanese Christians exist (and Palestinian too, which OP doesn't seem to realise), of course they do. Lots of Lebanese Christians attend the protest under banners eg "Maronites Against Oppression" "Palestinian Christian Association" etc.

The OP wouldn't know as I doubt she has even been to a march. Whatever she knows is what she reads on here. I hope I am wrong that the intention for this thread was just to pit one group against another.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damour_massacre

And the role played by the PLO

It was a horrible mess, hopefully the result of this conflict isn’t a descent into another civil war. Syria also occupied Lebanon for a while and then start talking about “greater syria” which is perhaps where the seeds of the “greater Israel” conspiracy theory comes from.

I imagine Lebanese would be happy to see Iran and Israel both out of their country tbh. Their political system needs an overhaul as well. It’s structure makes fighting almost inevitable.

The camps are there because Palestinians are not allowed citizenship or to buy property in Lebanon. If Hezbollah were actually concered about Palestinians this would have been rectified years ago.

I have been to marches, so I'll say that there's a lot of people who have at least some basic knowledge of background to the conflict and then a minority of people (usually) who discovered it a year ago and are waving signs saying "We are all Hamas" or full on "death to Israel" rhetoric.

Student protests inevitably feature half a dozen of the latter type who are destined to be photographed and featured on right wing news sites. My favourite were the ones who wrote a manifesto claiming that divestment required the collapse of the university itself. They also sent out a pro-Hamas leaflet to start off the academic year.

The situation of Palestinians in Lebanon is horrid. Many Lebanese blame Palestinians for the demographic shifts in Lebanon and say that giving them rights would let Israel off the hook and mean acceptance of the expulsion of Palestinians; but in the meantime, Palestinians are forced to suffer as an example. They're also not allowed full access to professions or education.

(one of the difficulties with understanding the Lebanese civil war is that there were really multiple sides, fighting with each other in different ways.)

Yeah exactly this, it’s extremely complicated, there were multiple militias plus syria and Israel. Just utter chaos.

I think also anyone who’s tempted to support Hezb needs to sit down and do some reading about Hizb actions in Syria. Theres a reason Syrians were celebrating Nasrallahs death.

Just a further point on Palestinians in Lebanon, the presence of the PLO is considered to be one of the triggers of the civil war. They had to be relocated to Tunisia afterwards because after Jordan and Lebanon no-one wanted them operating out of their country.

This no doubt contributed to the treatment to Palestinians in Lebanon, they are very reliant on UNWRA. Personally I think UNWRA is a shitshow but there are people who are genuinely and desperately reliant on aid from it.

I’ve said it before, the Palestinians have consistently had piss poor leadership which has made their situation worse.

To be fair, much of the potentially effective Palestinian leadership are either assassinated or jailed by Israel.

Yes -- and Israel did work to undermine Palestinian leadership at points, but there was a great deal of self-inflicted damage.

Hezbollah engaged in terrorist activities abroad (e.g. the embassy bombing and AMIA bombings in Buenos Aires in the '90s). Their conduct is much, much more than just the conflict with Israel.

I seriously doubt that, Hamas has done a pretty good job of pushing down protests complaining about the economic circumstances of Palestinians.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Gaza_economic_protests#:~:text=In%20July%20and%20August%202023,the%20poor%20paid%20by%20Qatar.

It is simplistic to think that Israel is arresting and detaining all the mild mannered people who wish to work towards a peaceful settlement for Palestinians. It is not fair to Gazan’s to not recognise their own movements committed to more than bullets and bombs for their people.

You can doubt it if you like, but Ghassan Khanafani was assassinated in 1972, there was an attempted assassination on Marwan Barghouti in 2001 (followed by a trial criticised by the Inter-Paliamentary Union: http://archive.ipu.org/hr-e/174/report.htm) and constant arrest and administrative detention on Palestinian students involved in student politics: https://law4palestine.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/Law-for-Palestine-Report.-Israels-Arrest-Policy-against-Palestinian-University-Students-in-the-West-Bank-and-Israel-.pdf

It is simplistic to think that Israel is arresting and detaining all the mild mannered people who wish to work towards a peaceful settlement for Palestinians. It is not fair to Gazan’s to not recognise their own movements committed to more than bullets and bombs for their people.

It's impossible to know where to start with this statement. While many Palestinian leaders wish for and work towards a peaceful solution (for example; Mostafa Barghouti, a key Palestinian leader), I am not sure why you would expect them to be "mild mannered"? And Palestine is not just Gaza, though I don't even understand what that last sentence means.

Marwan Baghouti

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marwan_Barghouti this guy? Involved in the infitada, I guess he was definitely better than Hamas given that he generally thought civilians shouldn’t be attacked. I have a lot of sympathy for him actually, he sounds like a thoughtful person who felt that his efforts were not going to bring a two state solution, I can imagine the frustration after efforts at building a future fail. But intifadas haven’t worked.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghassan_Kanafani

This guy thought to be involved in a terrorist attack on an airport, erm yeah don’t see him as a peaceful leader.

My last point was that choosing violence as resistance has consistently resulted in worse conditions for Palestinians. It isn’t working for them. Maybe try something different. Mild mannered was a figure of speech. What I meant not a crazy bloke who wants to kill the jews.

None of this convinces me that Palestinian leadership has been stymied entirely by Israel. I do think Palestinians have agency, I don’t believe them to be stupid or incapable.

I imagine part of the reason that there aren’t those voices in Gaza is because Hamas hounds anyone who criticises them. People who have nothing to do with violent action. I don’t know if you remeber the anti-hamas activist that had his arms and legs broken. Yeah I don’t think Israel did that do you? You think Hamas has been encouraging a democratic exchange of ideas in Gaza?

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx82xx9pj5do

To me that is the future of the Palestinian people, that man there, broken bones and refusing to engage in violence and refusing to shut up. There are better people to admire.

Where has being 'mid-mannered' et cetera got the Palestinians? Resolution 242, Camp David, Oslo Accord... And more and more illegal settlements in the West Bank to which the US and other powers of influence turn a blind eye.

It really is both things. Israel did target leaders and also actively encouraged the growth of Hamas during certain periods including the first intifada, which in my opinion, will go down as one of Israel's great strategic mistakes. However, Palestinian leaders made huge mistakes; the PLO's flight first to Beirut and then to Tunis was due to their own actions. And there's always been all sorts of internal fighting and factionalism and power struggles within the PLO.

They haven’t been mild mannered in the least. I am completely supportive of a 2 state solution, both Israel and the Palestinians are going to have to accept they aren’t going to get everything they want, they will have to partition the land, people will have to move etc etc.

All that has happened from attacking the Israelis is loss of land, more restrictions and destruction.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks

Look at this list and tell me with a straight face that thats mild mannered.

Look, we could continue in this vein forever, but it's a nation that is armed to the hilt by the US and others versus a displaced people without an army, let alone an air force. Many more Palestinians than Israelis have died as a result of this conflict and Israel has always been both vicious and intransigent. (I'm going to bow out now as I am finding this too distressing. )

So just to get your point , you are saying the Lebanese christians are happy that israel is bombing the hell out of their country to "save" them from hesbollah ?
Do you honestly still buy the "white saviour logic they feed you ? For heavens sake , please stop !

My last point was that choosing violence as resistance has consistently resulted in worse conditions for Palestinians.

Palestinians overwhelmingly supported a peaceful path to a two state solution through the Oslo Accords. Israelis were less in support (Netanyahu and his party in particular were deeply opposed). This path was ended when the Israeli Prime Minister progressing it was assassinated by an Israeli Jew.

The PLO/ Fatah (who support peaceful normalisation and two state solution with Israel) is in charge in the West Bank and conditions there are intolerably bad. Putting aside the horrific economic conditions and the fact that your land can simply be taken by Israeli settlers who will then be protected in keeping it by the Israeli army, with guns. There is enormous danger of being arrested and held in administrative detention by Israel (and tortured including sexual torture) if you participate in any sort of peaceful resistance. It's happened to my own family members.

It's meaningless to tell Palestinians it's their "choices" that have led to their condition; it's just an Israeli talking to justify their reign of terror.

What has led to the condition of Palestinians is that Zionists want their land, without them, and the US is willing to fund all efforts to make it a reality.

Btw I don't support Hamas. But Israel is the problem here, Hamas is just a symptom.

Yes, it was known as the Paris of the Middle East in the 70's.