Page 3 | Why is Israel determined to start WW3?

ssd · 2024-04-19T06:49:37+00:00

What is wrong with them? This isn't self defense, they attacked Iran first. Netanyahu needs to go, I'm sure the ordinary Israeli people don't want this either. At least i hope they don't.

VisitationRights · 21/04/2024 09:02

It really isn’t Israel who wants war, they are perfectly happy to have peace e.g. with Egypt, Jordan, Saudi, etc.

It is the Islamic Republic and it’s proxies, Hezbollah, Hamas, and Islamic Jihad (other terrorist organisations too) that are intent on starting a holy war.

it doesn’t end with Israel either. islamists are bigger imperialists and colonialists than even GB was.

Duckinglunacy · 21/04/2024 09:14

SharonEllis · 21/04/2024 08:45

Whether you are in support of Israel's prosecution of this war or not there is no way that Israel is not much better than Iran. Try being a woman or a gay person and see how you get on in each (I suspect about an hour will be all you need). Israel's problem is too much democracy leading to small extremist parties & political groupings holding too much power in coalition governments. There is no evidence that Neyanyahu wants to annhilate Iran except in his dreams (the Iranian peoole would also, mostly, like to annhilate their leadership). He is just warning them not to try & annhilate Israel which Iran certainly would like to do & trying to control their influence which is an entirely legitimate thing to do.

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But I think this argument, that Israel treats its citizens better than Iran, is actually a straw man argument. I made no explicit comment on Israel’s treatment of its citizens, I do hear often that it treats women and LGBT better, but I don’t know any gay Israeli people to ask.

the point being that at this point it doesn’t really matter how well a government treats its own citizens when the problem right now is the country’s attitude to citizens of neighbouring countries. Israel may treat its own citizens well but it has shat on Palestinians for decades.

If we are in a situation where we are all willing the Islamic Republic to de-escalate and show restraint that’s hugely risky in my opinion.

Factsareimportantplease · 21/04/2024 09:18

Noicant · 19/04/2024 08:25

The attack on the consulate annex was probably because one of the architects of 7th Oct was there meeting with reps from Islamic Jihad. They really didn’t attack Iran first given it looks like Iran was probably involved in planning the initial attack and have been helping and funding hezbollah and hamas for years. They have been conducting proxy campaigns against Israel for years. Even though it was an annex I still don’t think they should have bombed it.

There have been numerous attacks on Israeli consulates by PLO backed organisations and one from Islamic Jihad so it’s not unheard of. The difference is the use of proxies vs a direct attack by the actual government. I doubt Iran had nothing to do with those, the Buenos Aires one was the most likely to have been directed by Iran, the difference is hiding behind proxies instead of taking responsibility for it.

I would also gently point out that Hamas seemed to believe that the 7th October attack would be a trigger for Hezbollah and Iran to come to it’s aid in a fight against Israel, they were the ones who were actually trying to create a regional war here. They put out statements along the lines of “reminding friends of promises made” etc.

I think Israel is making sure that countries in it’s vicinity know there is a cost to attacking Israel whether thats through proxies or directly. That they don’t need de-escalation in a direct confrontation even though Iran basically said “well thats the end of that” after their strike on Israel. It seems irrational but it’s actually not if you think about it. They are communicating that a) a strike on Israel regardless of whether it was successful or not will not go unanswered b) their enemies may want to be able to harry them without consequence by bringing international pressure on them but it won’t work.

Think about it from the Israeli perspective, Iran has been threatening to wipe them out for years, they fund proxies in the region that regularly bomb them or fund attacks against them, Israel regularly kills their commanders and when they respond to the first direct attack everyone is yelling at them to stop it.

This is separate from what’s happening in Gaza atm really it moves into the realm of geopolitics.

Don't bring facts into a thread, the mantra is blame Israel for everything. Didn't you get the memo?

SharonEllis · 21/04/2024 09:20

Duckinglunacy · 21/04/2024 09:14

But I think this argument, that Israel treats its citizens better than Iran, is actually a straw man argument. I made no explicit comment on Israel’s treatment of its citizens, I do hear often that it treats women and LGBT better, but I don’t know any gay Israeli people to ask.

the point being that at this point it doesn’t really matter how well a government treats its own citizens when the problem right now is the country’s attitude to citizens of neighbouring countries. Israel may treat its own citizens well but it has shat on Palestinians for decades.

If we are in a situation where we are all willing the Islamic Republic to de-escalate and show restraint that’s hugely risky in my opinion.

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@Duckinglunacy thats because gay Israelis have no problem staying in Israel. Whereas I do know a gay Iranian & a straight Iranian and they are both exiles in the UK who have a wide circle of fellow exiles, all with horrific stories. This extremely well documented so you dont actually need to have personal contacts to research whether it is true. Whenever ther is a march or vigil in support of Jews or Israel you will invariably find an Iranian contingent.

binaryfinery · 21/04/2024 09:20

Noicant · 19/04/2024 08:25

The attack on the consulate annex was probably because one of the architects of 7th Oct was there meeting with reps from Islamic Jihad. They really didn’t attack Iran first given it looks like Iran was probably involved in planning the initial attack and have been helping and funding hezbollah and hamas for years. They have been conducting proxy campaigns against Israel for years. Even though it was an annex I still don’t think they should have bombed it.

There have been numerous attacks on Israeli consulates by PLO backed organisations and one from Islamic Jihad so it’s not unheard of. The difference is the use of proxies vs a direct attack by the actual government. I doubt Iran had nothing to do with those, the Buenos Aires one was the most likely to have been directed by Iran, the difference is hiding behind proxies instead of taking responsibility for it.

I would also gently point out that Hamas seemed to believe that the 7th October attack would be a trigger for Hezbollah and Iran to come to it’s aid in a fight against Israel, they were the ones who were actually trying to create a regional war here. They put out statements along the lines of “reminding friends of promises made” etc.

I think Israel is making sure that countries in it’s vicinity know there is a cost to attacking Israel whether thats through proxies or directly. That they don’t need de-escalation in a direct confrontation even though Iran basically said “well thats the end of that” after their strike on Israel. It seems irrational but it’s actually not if you think about it. They are communicating that a) a strike on Israel regardless of whether it was successful or not will not go unanswered b) their enemies may want to be able to harry them without consequence by bringing international pressure on them but it won’t work.

Think about it from the Israeli perspective, Iran has been threatening to wipe them out for years, they fund proxies in the region that regularly bomb them or fund attacks against them, Israel regularly kills their commanders and when they respond to the first direct attack everyone is yelling at them to stop it.

This is separate from what’s happening in Gaza atm really it moves into the realm of geopolitics.

I agree

Factsareimportantplease · 21/04/2024 09:20

VisitationRights · 21/04/2024 09:02

It really isn’t Israel who wants war, they are perfectly happy to have peace e.g. with Egypt, Jordan, Saudi, etc.

It is the Islamic Republic and it’s proxies, Hezbollah, Hamas, and Islamic Jihad (other terrorist organisations too) that are intent on starting a holy war.

it doesn’t end with Israel either. islamists are bigger imperialists and colonialists than even GB was.

Lots of terrorists quite happy to have a war against Israel. Again more facts which are generally not well received.

statsfun · 21/04/2024 09:38

Cloclo93 · 21/04/2024 08:59

There focused on getting that 500 trillion worth of gas of the gaza strip coast line plus they want to build there beach houses on gaza they want the Palestinian people gone, look at all the land Israel has stolen already this is all about greed, uk and America has already signed deals for gas with Israel. The whole world is watching a genocide and doing nothing because the mainstream media has it so twisted

There are a couple of oil fields off Gaza, but they really aren't very big or worth getting into a fight over. The big ones are much further North, off Israel's coast.

Israel clearly prefer peace to land given that as part of their peace treaty with Egypt, they returned the entire Sinai Peninsula which they had captured in war. The Sinai is 60,000 square km, about 3 times the size of Israel (22, 000 square km) and about 425 times the size of Gaza (141 square km). They did insist on a large demilitarised zone though, to make sure Egypt didn't invade them again. 40 years on, relations are normalised and Israel no longer fear invasion from Egypt, so the demilitarised zones have reduced.

AdamRyan · 21/04/2024 10:35

SharonEllis · 21/04/2024 09:20

@Duckinglunacy thats because gay Israelis have no problem staying in Israel. Whereas I do know a gay Iranian & a straight Iranian and they are both exiles in the UK who have a wide circle of fellow exiles, all with horrific stories. This extremely well documented so you dont actually need to have personal contacts to research whether it is true. Whenever ther is a march or vigil in support of Jews or Israel you will invariably find an Iranian contingent.

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Sharon you need to listen to Yuval Noah Harari talk about growing up in Israel as a gay man. He certainly didn't find it accepting of homosexuality. His "leading" talk is very interesting.

statsfun · 21/04/2024 10:40

@Auvergne63 - I think it was my post from 20:57 last night which prompted your question. Although I used the present tense, the post (and the one I was replying to) was about the 40s.

If I post on what's happening in Gaza, I refer to the Gazans - since that's most accurate. I think if I was talking about negotiation about a Palestinian state I'd refer to the Palestinians, but I'm not sure since I generally don't.

I mainly just challenge posts which are blatantly inaccurate or seem very biased to me, or very occasionally to call out antisemitism. I think it's important for this board not to become an anti-Israel echo chamber where one viewpoint is repeated and repeated until anyone coming in thinks it must be the only truth.

SharonEllis · 21/04/2024 13:32

AdamRyan · 21/04/2024 10:35

Sharon you need to listen to Yuval Noah Harari talk about growing up in Israel as a gay man. He certainly didn't find it accepting of homosexuality. His "leading" talk is very interesting.

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I haven't listened to that but I have read quite a bit of his writing. A gay boy growing up in a small conservative town (as he describes it) might face discrimination almost anywhere in the west because there are still prejudiced people around and most conservative strads of most religions are anti-gay. There is still much to do everywhere. But, Israel has the best record on gay rights in the middle east & most of Asia. As he points out, compare that to Gaza, where homosexuality is illegal & gay men are persecuted. Tel Aviv has been voted highly in various international polls about gay experience.Gay relationships have been legal for a long time & Harari himself still lives in Israel with his husband. Iran on the other hand persecutes, imprisons & executes gay people & has the secind highest rate of reassignment surgery in the world because gay men are forced into surgery. Really, no comparison.

AboutYouTalk · 28/04/2024 22:30

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