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Conflict in the Middle East

Gaza has gone dark ... and I am very afraid!

355 replies

HeidiInTheBigCity · 27/10/2023 19:14

Tonight, as Gaza has gone dark, tonight, as Gazan civilians have lost that lifeline that used to be "publishing their cries for help to the Internet, as they were literally dying", tonight, as even that option has ceased to exist!

I STAND WITH CIVILIANS!

Not with Hamas!
NOT with the ultra-far-right Israeli government - out for revenge!

Tonight, I STAND WITH CIVILIANS, as innocent men, women and children are dying, collectively punished, for the crime of having been born in the wrong place, at the wrong time!

Tonight, I STAND WITH CIVILIANS, as the families of Israeli hostages watch helplessly, as their missing loved ones are bombed into oblivion, and their own PM has not even bothered to meet with them! Because, once again, revenge has won! Violence has won! Barbarism has won! Death has won!

Tonight, I stand with my friend, a Palestinian-born [what he does for a living] currently getting drunk at a bar in [not where you'd expect] - because he cannot stand watching anymore! We cried together on the phone - it felt nice to know there was someone else out there - but it also felt supremely disempowered and helpless! Tonight, I stand with men, women, boys, girls ... just people, people who want to live!

Tonight, as I recall how utterly terrified I used to be when I, myself, became an accidental witness to the assault on [Palestinian city], some 20 years ago now! I also recall the good times: I recall standing on the rooftop of the [name] family's home, watching flares in the sky, deliberately pretending they were just very bright stars, kissing, and dancing with my fiancé. Snuggling up to him under the wide open sky, as we ignored the sound of shooting in the background, as we just wanted to ... live a little! ... under circumstances that didn't leave much room for living. For life! Knowing we would learn about names of people we knew and the fact that they had been killed while we had been trying to ... just live a little ... as the following day would break!

Tonight, I stand with civilians, realising that this particular, comparatively "fluffy" version of war - a version, make no mistake, that has left me deeply traumatised for life, bittersweet memories aside! - this is just NOT AN OPTION for Gazans tonight!

Tonight, I CRY FOR CIVILIANS! Especially, but not only, for civilians in Gaza!

We have GOT TO DO better!

Note: yes, I have censored a number of data points - because that is how afraid I am! I am not willing to potentially expose people I consider friends, family even, unnecessarily as I, frankly helplessly, post to the so-called Internet, pleading for their lives or, at the very least: sympathy!

OP posts:
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Itsaharddlife · 27/10/2023 22:04

TakeMe2Insanity · 27/10/2023 22:02

A bit like the hospital staff/patients/refugees.

Yeh, a bit like when they said run to the south but then carried on attacking them

RedToothBrush · 27/10/2023 22:04

Inastatus · 27/10/2023 21:03

I’m another one who does not understand the whole history of this conflict but I am horrified at what is unfolding and this is a chilling update. How can the rest of the world stand by and let this happen?

The problem with this statement is also:

What could the UK do to stop it?

I am reading a (very) long twitter thread from one of the accounts I've followed longest. The guy is very well rounded in what he says on geopolitics.

I'll try and link to the whole thread cos it's worth a read in a bit but here's a few key points:

Iyad el-Baghdadi AT el-baghdadi
It was also under Netanyahu that Israel expanded its disinfo capacities and leaned hard into relying upon cyber capabilities and high-tech occupation. Also a reminder, Netanyahu is one of the first pioneers of the "war on terror" paradigm,

So after Oct 7 Bibi had one of two options - (1) resign & admit that this is the result of a series of failures most of which lead back to him; or (2) go all out and try to accomplish a "victory" his allies always wanted but couldn't do. Ethnically cleanse 2 million Palestinians.

So my analysis is that Israel's response so far reflects primarily not Israel's security imperatives but Netanyahu's political calculations. His first statement was "We're going to change the Middle East", which if you follow Netanyahu you know is a very Netanyahu thing to say.

Netanyahu even seems willing to sacrifice the hostages for that. He's not even meeting with hostage families, and pro-Netanyahu mobs are calling hostage families "traitors" for calling for a cease fire to allow for hostage negotiations before a ground invasion

I understand when people ask "What else could he have done in response to such a brazen attack". AT AmiDar and others have written good posts about this. But while such a response would have been good for Israel it would have been bad for Bibi's career

Ami Dar AT AmiDar
Some people have asked, "What would you do if you were in Netanyahu's place?" After thinking about this, here's what I would have done last week: Nothing. Nothing at all. Not one bullet—at least not for a while. I would have said, "We will secure our borders immediately. We will bury and grieve for our dead. We will sit shiva together. And we will THINK before acting. I promise you this won't happen again. But we will do this methodically, surgically, politically, economically. With most of the world behind us, and while keeping an eye on the future we want to build here. I understand the desire for action now. But we have to be strong AND smart. And Hamas is in Gaza. They can't leave. They, and we, can wait a bit. We will win. But we will do this right."

This would have been hard-to-impossible to pull off politically, but that's what leaders are for.

Iyad el-Baghdadi AT el-baghdadi
(Btw, Israel will come out of this a much more polarized and right-wing country. You'd expect people to rally to their leader and to unite vs a common threat after such horrors, but Bibi is placing his political career above everyone's security in Israel & regionally/globally)

And so the Israeli (Netanyahu & co) response to a humiliating failure is to "achieve the impossible" and ethnically cleanse Gaza. I'll come back to the actual Gaza op and the stated objective of "destroying Hamas". But now let's look at Egypt in all of this.

The thread continues with other areas of geopolitics.

He then continues:

Back to Gaza. Some have blind faith that the IDF will absolutely win and eliminate Hamas. I don't share that view. Bibi painted himself into a corner with "destroy Hamas" as objective. He clearly doesn't have a well thought out plan.

To really "destroy Hamas", he'll have to wage a bloody, prolonged urban war to dislodge a well trained, highly motivated, well supplied army that has spent over a decade digging in and preparing for such a day. The IDF has never fought such a battle.

He'll have to take all of Gaza and hold it, and either push out its inhabitants or fight among them. A partial invasion will only relocate Hamas. An occupation will make IDF a target for a prolonged and bloody attrition war.

The deeper he gets into Gaza, the higher the risk of a second front opening to his north, plus multiple fronts vs the US, and a regional conflagration erupting. The regional escalatory potential will be almost infinite.

Also the deeper he gets into Gaza and the more desperate the situation gets for civilians there, the more likely it is that even his long-term partners Egypt and Jordan will turn on him, despite their hatred of Hamas, because they can't afford not to

And even if he actually wins, all he'd have done is relocated Palestinian militancy from a besieged and blockaded Gaza to a slightly further but much deeper (and suddenly much less stable) Egypt

Right now in Israel a major shitstorm has erupted between Bibi and IDF. He wants them to take the blame for Oct 7. IDF also suspicious of the military aims he's setup and think some are unrealistic. Meanwhile the hostage families who want to see negotiations are being ignored.

The most likely outcome is he'll go in as far as he can but as the risks rise for everyone he'll have to stop, declare victory and pull out.

The report card will be:
- Israel isn't safer
- Relations with long-term partners (Egypt & Jordan) damaged

Report card cont:
- Impossible for Saudi to normalize for a while
- Real damage to US standing in the region
- Hamas can claim victory because it wasn't destroyed

In the words of Noam: Many Israelis & their future and security are also captives of Netanyahu. De-escalation is in everyone's benefit. Except Netanyahu.

The UK in abstaining is piling pressure on Netanyahu BUT it can't abandon our line on defending against terrorism and the concept of 'the war on terror' because so much of our foreign and domestic policy is entwined with the concept.

BUT it's not insignificant nor is it supporting Israel at all.

Do not think this is the UK being toothless. This IS significant. It IS breaking with the US.

cestlavielife · 27/10/2023 22:04

Is Israel govt sacrificing the hostages?

SaintMarie · 27/10/2023 22:07

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SaintMarie · 27/10/2023 22:08

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MissyB1 · 27/10/2023 22:08

cestlavielife · 27/10/2023 22:04

Is Israel govt sacrificing the hostages?

That’s what i believe 🙁

queenofarles · 27/10/2023 22:12

Is Israel govt sacrificing the hostages? from what I’m seeing, I think they are well behind that stage .

Dinkydaisy1 · 27/10/2023 22:14

FrippEnos · 27/10/2023 21:16

It will be interesting to see how the pro-Israeli PR teams spin this.
Surely even they must see how wrong this is.

No need to wait to see. Can see it on mumsnet already, in this post crying for humanity, you still have people defending murderers

Judashascomeintosomemoney · 27/10/2023 22:14

cestlavielife · 27/10/2023 22:04

Is Israel govt sacrificing the hostages?

Well, five hours ago the Qatar led negotiations were reported to be ‘going well’.
Jeremy Bowen has literally just now reported that his sources have confirmed that negotiations are now ‘no longer ongoing’.
Make of that what you will.

Notonthestairs · 27/10/2023 22:14

Very interesting reading Redtoothbrush. Thank you.

Dabralor · 27/10/2023 22:15

It is just horror. All those people, trapped in the dark cut off from help. Its hard not to just to hold on to my children and cry.

Iamacatslave · 27/10/2023 22:16

@RedToothBrush thank you for your post.

Ostryga · 27/10/2023 22:17

cestlavielife · 27/10/2023 22:04

Is Israel govt sacrificing the hostages?

They didn’t care about them in the first place. This has all been a huge ruse to wipe out the Palestinian people.

HeidiInTheBigCity · 27/10/2023 22:19

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In a truly dark hour, at a time when I know that - however deliberately drunk or not I can get - I will have a hard time falling asleep tonight, again!

Thank you for just "crossing the Rubicon".

Regardless of how ridiculous this sounds: as a fellow student of Latin / Classics: it's just crazy uplifting - don't ask, I can't even explain it, it just FEELS comforting! - if someone uses your language!

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SaintMarie · 27/10/2023 22:19

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duchiebun · 27/10/2023 22:20

The UK in abstaining is piling pressure on Netanyahu BUT it can't abandon our line on defending against terrorism and the concept of 'the war on terror' because so much of our foreign and domestic policy is entwined with the concept.

@RedToothBrush exactly, so many don’t seem to understand this bit.

Motorina · 27/10/2023 22:20

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The secret fear at the back of my brain, where I’m trying not to look at it, is that Israel will turn to tactical nuclear weapons in their efforts to eliminate Hamas. I’d be delighted to be wrong but, as you say, this feels bad.

Wanderinghome · 27/10/2023 22:20

It's so sad. The fear that people must be feeling is sickening.

Igotjelly · 27/10/2023 22:21

I suspect that’s incredibly unlikely given the geographical proximity of Gaza and Israel.

Igotjelly · 27/10/2023 22:21

sorry that was on the nuclear question.

Dinkydaisy1 · 27/10/2023 22:22

Ostryga · 27/10/2023 22:17

They didn’t care about them in the first place. This has all been a huge ruse to wipe out the Palestinian people.

This is nothing about the hostages or anything. It's just all a big lie to destroy Palestine. It's the Iraq war all over again, and worse.

duchiebun · 27/10/2023 22:22

The secret fear at the back of my brain, where I’m trying not to look at it, is that Israel will turn to tactical nuclear weapons

err you realise that nuclear weapons have a pretty big range?!

duchiebun · 27/10/2023 22:23

This is nothing about the hostages or anything. It's just all a big lie to destroy Palestine. It's the Iraq war all over again, and worse.

@Dinkydaisy1 are you saying there aren’t any hostages?

SaintMarie · 27/10/2023 22:23

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bellac11 · 27/10/2023 22:24

Iamacatslave · 27/10/2023 21:53

And who thinks Israel will listen to the UN?

Did I hear recently that Israel has stopped issuing visas for UN officials to get into the country?

So Im not sure how much power the UN has in that respect with Israel

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