Imposing change - would you be in favour??

[Twattergy]

Reading the climate change threads there is a lot about the changes we can make to do our bit for the environment. But my feeling is for the dial to shift some fundamental things need to be imposed on us, not a choice. Covid has shown us that people will manage restrictions of they have to. I think there should be:
-Compulsory water metering

• Massive clamp down on water waste by water companies- like business threatening level fines
• Restrict number of flights per person per annum and pay a significant tax if you need to do more
• Product makers forced to ditch unnecessary packaging ( I acknowledge much food packaging reduced food waste so you can't just look at food)
• My most extreme one is rationing of meat, the US and UK per capita consumption of meat is ridiculously high and all of us would be fine if we ate less of it (and yes govn would need to compensate meat producers, but furlough shows state compensation is possible if the need is strong enough).

There are others but those are my opening thoughts!

Does anyone know how to calculate the difference between a flight to Spain compared to the emissions caused by driving through France to get there, or perhaps getting the ferry to Northern Spain and driving down, is there much of a difference?

Is that particularly energy intensive?

I thought that when lighting is switched off in town centres it increase crime?

I'd be 100% in favour. Individuals cutting down on meat or not going abroad is all very well but it isn't drastic enough. People don't want to slash their lifestyles, especially when they see others buying new cars or having 5 children. But we need mass action fast.

I'd also like to see climate impact on things we buy, though I don't know how feasible this is or how accurate it could be. For example, we're told that buying local food is best, but then you read that UK tomatoes use more energy than imported Spanish ones. And how much impact does the packaging have? And dishwashers - people bang on about how they're great for water use, but TBH I find it hard to believe that the production and disposal of a large metal and plastic kitchen appliance is preferable to washing dishes by hand. But how can I know?

@bellac11 Our Would in Data - you'll need to download the table and do some maths, use Excel if you're okay with that.

@DuesToTheDirt Many products now have Environmental Product Declarations, or EPDs, based on a Lifecycle Analysis or LCA. (There are lots of different names for the same thing though.) Environdec provide a service to companies wishing to publish EPDs but most just put them up on their corporate sites.

Miele Dishwasher scroll down and click on "Efficiency and Sustainability". 6.0 litres for 14 place settings, that's about two bowls of water. There's nothing about manufacturing but most EPDs I've seen have in-use as the by far the largest impact.

Comparison of dishwashing here - manual dishwashing is roughly 2x the environmental footprint of a dishwasher. Materials and manufacturing are maybe 10% of the lifetime emissions of a dishwasher.

Mobile phones are a bit of an exception when it comes to in-use emissions:

Google Pixel 6a EPD- 65 kg CO2e
Apple 13 Pro Max EPD- 74 kg CO2e

@DuesToTheDirt this is what I struggle with. I don’t always know what is best. I buy bamboo toothbrushes. I’m assuming they’re better but I actually don’t know that. It’s just something that’s on trend at the moment. Maybe plastic, as a by product of oil industry is better?

And how do you compare different aspects of environmental impact? Eg manufacture, human impact, transportation, how long something lasts and then how long it takes to biodegrade.

Equally, biodegradable items don’t always biodegrade unless they’re in the right environment to do so. That may not happen on landfill, especially if something is in a bin liner.

@BruisedSkies You've raised some good points but plastic isn't a byproduct of the oil industry about 10% of oil is used to make plastic so it's very much a primary product.

The different aspects of environmental impact are actually very well established in formal Lifecycle Analysis methods. Although they can be somewhat subjective they should be transparent. If you look at the mobile phone EPDs I linked upthread you'll see many of those elements broken down, there a couple of terms such as inventory boundary and functional unit that cover the more nebulous aspects.

Biodegradable and compostable are actually well defined terms with very specific meanings.

Thanks daft. I’ll have a look. I heard someone talking once about biodegradable nappies. And how it’s misleading because the conditions in landfill aren’t right for them to biodegrade. I do find it overwhelming to be able to understand the intricacies without products just ‘greenwashing’ to sell me stuff. And then when I see Elon Musk making a huge spaceship to go into space for no reason, I just despair. There’s me trying to think about what’s best and it’s just all pointless when there’s people like him around. Not just him, obvs, but all the super rich and their vanity projects and huge cars and private jets and formula 1 cars and monster trucks. People paving over greenery, chopping down the rainforest, killing animals for no reason. Even moths are dying in huge rates because of light pollution. I see fairy lights in peoples gardens and hate it. The light of the moon doesn’t stand a chance against all those bright lights.

The problem with a lot of environmental packaging is it just doesn't work I regularly see opened packs of food in the supermarket because the packaging hasn't sealed properly/ has ripped.
So many poor quality items on the market (not even that cheap) all those container ships bringing in crap from the Far East just isn't needed. Hike taxes on tat (who needs glowing pumpkins or Father Christmas' which might last a few weeks and then get binned?) <<<< needs taxing heavily.
Look at all the things needing batteries these days, again does anyone really need a light up dog lead or collar? (I walk Ddog in the dark in the winter she has a reflective lead and collar, both used for my previous dog and still highly reflective 15 years on, she doesn't need to glow though!)
It's easy to say stop eating meat, but no one mentions our oceans. We really need to stop eating fish, the over fishing is causing a major issue with bigger predators in the seas. We massively need to reduce plastics in the sea. My grandmother was a marine biologist, she always said the sea should be viewed as the earths lungs and we're slower suffocating it.
As for all the plastic water bottles. Before I gave up flying I went to Greece, awesome country but I was strongly advised to drink bottled water not tap water, I don't know if that's still the case, as this was a good 10 years ago, but surely bottled water must have a huge impact on the environment (how many other EU countries still don't advise drinking tap water?)?
Fashion also needs much heavier taxation, a pair of jeans shouldn't be £10. The water it takes to grow the cotton, the machines used to turn it into fabric, the dying process, the shipping etc all comes at huge environmental expense.
The bottom line op is that telling people what to do is never very effective and puts peoples backs up, so it won't have much impact, but increasing taxes on non essential goods, would automatically reduce waste (and increasing taxes should mean more money in the gov. Coffers to go towards better social care etc).

And dishwashers - people bang on about how they're great for water use, but TBH I find it hard to believe that the production and disposal of a large metal and plastic kitchen appliance is preferable to washing dishes by hand.

I'm with you. When I hear talk about dishwashers, I just think it's a load of shite.

For it to use less water than washing up, it would have to do a very poor job of cleaning. I can't see how it is more efficient.

If I scrub up with the tap off, and then rinse with cold water, it doesn't get more efficient than that.

It's like people saying electric cars are the solution to congestion. We still have to manufacture, transport, fuel and dispose of this ginormous thing. How is that better than walking or public transport- or in this case, washing up by hand?

Flats to install electric car charging points in all garages and parking spaces. (Our council is doing well with street parking charging points but they are in dodgy areas that would put my insurance up. )

Flats made to install solar panels and window shades.

councils to plant more trees in city centres to reduce the urban heat effect and be responsible for organising upkeep.

being made compulsory to allow heat pumps in flats. Either in ground for ground floor or on walls/roof/balconies for upper floors.

all schools asked to plant more trees and do compulsory climate classes (geography) and grow your own food classes)

and lots of ideas above. I don't like some of them but they are good for the planet.

more TPOs

@whataloadabullocks we already have VAT and duty on many non-essential goods but pretty much every element of your post is down to consumer choice and it is very difficult to judge how sustainable something is. There is nothing wrong whatsoever with single use PET bottles with like material caps, as long as it is recycled.

We have to get away from the argument that it's up to big business, government, the council, celebrities, etc etc before individuals should take action. Regressive taxation will also hit those in need most. Some people may only be able to afford a £10 pair of jeans every year or two.

You have to remember the force at which the water is directed at the items and the steam created which cleans too, thats why it uses less water

However I do wonder if the calculations at what is more 'eco' takes into account that I think that the dishwasher salts and tablets are surely more damaging to the environment than washing up liquid?

@pollypokcet you are wrong re dishwashers please read this and this

Indeed! Efficient, but nowhere near as good as soap and water in the sink. It's impossible that it's better. Imagine shipping in a brand new dishwasher because it's more efficient, not a chance!

Thanks daftasabroom, there is a range of washing up, I guess if you use constantly running boiling water that would very energy/water intensive VS cool and switched off at intervals.

I can't walk far, dd is autistic and struggles on public transport. We need a car currently. Solving the problem of us needing a car would help. (An electric powered trike and safe cycle routes? ) stuff that reduces car use. Better waterproof clothing?

@bellac11 dishwasher salt is sodium chloride, i.e. salt, i.e the same stuff in the ocean, exactly the same stuff - 0.25% by weight generally, you could put it on your dinner. And as Nemo said all drains lead to the sea! 🐠

That said our dishwasher is broken and all our dishwater is going on the garden.

More or less (radio4) did a segment on washing up v dishwashers but did less washing up with more water than I use.

"This number of items to this amount of water is better than running the dishwasher" info is required. (Don't have a dishwasher, not the space nor the money) but it would be worth knowing when it is more efficient to have one. I wonder about taking into account the need for more pots to make a load or more cupboard space needed to store them is taken into account) (presumably you would need a critical number of dirty pots and pans when hand washing too)

The analysis is included in the report - also it takes a watering can full to get our/my hot water to run hot, so that's a good 5 litres.

@bellac11 DS20 is autistic, his first year on the school bus he had to count all the lamposts, then all the driveways - a different thing everyday. This year he took himself off on a multiple connected journey including lifts in cars, trains, buses, flights to arrive and find his accommodation hadn't been booked. I'm not sure it was a breeze but he made it!!!👏

Apologies that last post was for @BlackeyedSusan

Might have been mentioned but I really want a levy on disposable cups for coffee etc. Boston tea party have ditched them altogether nationwide so it's totally possible. They sell e coffee cups in store for £3/4 when they are £11 in other shops. I really like their model. I'm planning to buy keep cups for everyone at work for Xmas and try and strongly encourage no paper.

I know it's only paper cups but it's a huge waste mountain just for laziness. Dp and I are carrying keep cups everywhere now.

I think thats gimicky. Paper cups are recyclable and what is the levy going to achive, how does that in itself lower emissions?

The facilities for recycling need to be consistent throughout the country, it varies from council to council and the tech to recycle different types of packaging needs to be improved

@pastypirate I agree with reducing waste but I don't think regulating every little thing is the best way - far too much bureaucracy, it would be maybe easier to remove VAT on recycled materials (I'll have to look that up, it may be a thing already).

Maybe a consumer tax element to VAT?