Things I've only just realised...

[Sausagenbacon]

That when the kings visit Herod, and say that the messiah will be born in Bethlehem, they are referring to Micah's prophecy.

Yes... when the Magi arrive and say the Messiah has been born, Herod asks the Jewish chief priests where it should happen, and they say "Bethlehem" because of the prophecy

We've been doing "Christmas brick-by-brick" at my church this year, and one of our "bricks" was "God’s in charge... not Caesar Augustus" (who ordered the census. When I became a Christian, it was all the little ways that the Bible fits together that convinced me that it's true.

Happy Christmas

Frankincense and myrrh are tree saps. I don't know why I never wondered what these gifts actually were. I knew what they symbolised but what they actually were never really crossed my mind until today.

The hymn ‘Tell out my soul’ is actually the Magnificat.

No excuse - I am a former chorister 🤣🤣🤣

I only realised today that Herod ordered the Magi to report back to him after they had visited the baby. They had a dream that told them not to and went home a different route. How did I not know this before?

@Interl0per - that’s what makes it ring so true for me too. I listen to Fr Mike Schmitz Bible in a Year podcast and he’s really good at explaining these links

I remember the time I realised what a wonderfully obedient man Joseph was - when the angel warned him in a dream to take Mary and Jesus and escape to Egypt he got up immediately and went the same night. And of course they had the gold, frankincense and myrrh to finance themselves.

I was brought up Protestant and DH was brought at Catholic. We were coming home from Catholic mass and one of our kids asked if Mary had any other children. I blithely said yes and that the Bible alludes to several brothers of Jesus. DH was horrified and said Mary was a virgin her whole life. Until this conversation, I had assumed all Christians believed Jesus was conceived immaculately abut Mary and Joseph went on to have a normal sex life. I had no idea the Catholic Church thought otherwise,

For the record, I am an atheist and regard myself as a cultural a Christian but I found the conversation fascinating. DH was deeply unsettled that Protestants don’t all believe in the eternal virgin!

That's really interesting @CrocsNotDocs there's a verse in the gospels that talks about Jesus siblings. I wonder how the Catholics deal with that.

Apparently in ancient times the same word could mean siblings or cousins. So the apostle James (I think) was a cousin of Jesus.

There’s also a theory that St Joseph had been previously married, and that he already had children.

That's so odd. The Catholic Church just seems to shrug away the brothers.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_virginity_of_Mary

Well the word itself has the meaning of those who came from the same womb, although that can be a metaphor.

There’s a verse in Matthew’s Gospel that, for me, settles the question, though- and makes it clear that yes, Joseph and Mary had a normal married relationship, including sex.
“When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.”
Matthew 1:24-25

That little word “until” (Greek. ἕως
Transliteration: heōs) tells us everything.

The word "heos" in Greek doesn't imply a reversal in state after the specified event like it does in English though. In the Bible it often only indicates what happened up until a certain event, with no implication about what follows on after. So, for example

"And Saul's daughter Michal bore no children from that day on until the day she died." 2 Samuel 6:23 - that obviously doesn't imply she had children after she died 😁

"The LORD says to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”" Psalm 110:1 - that doesn't imply that Christ will stop sitting at God's right hand after.

Also, with regards to "brothers and sisters", if you've ever studied a Kinship module in Anthropology, you learn that different cultures have different systems for describing kinship relations. For example, the word for your mother's sister's children might be the same one you use for what we call siblings, but you might refer to your mother's brother's children as your cousins. So Jesus' "brothers and sisters" may well be cousins, or children from Joseph's earlier marriage, as Joseph was an elder betrothed to her to be her guardian and protect her virginity.

There's also theological reasons why Mary was a perpetual virgin, that she is the Ark of the New Covenant, giving birth to God the word who saves and justifies, ie holy, set apart and untouchable. She had total consecration to God as her lifelong vocation in her role as Theotokos - God bearer, as described by St Athanasius and St Jerome.

Thank you @DogandMog - you’ve managed to explain the thinking eloquently. I read these things, and can’t remember the detail.

I'm not Christian, but find this thread interesting, particularly as one of the subjects I teach is RE.
I hadn't come across the suggestion that Joseph was previously married: what is supposed to have happened to his first wife and any children? Why would they have not been required to travel with him for the census? I think polygamy was a thing back then, but was he still married to another woman? Or was he a widower?

I assume a widower

It's just someone's thinking so open to any suggestions.

I find the idea that Mary remained a virgin all her life really distasteful. She was a married woman; why should she not have had a normal sex life and other children? It seems to imply that being a virgin is somehow better than not being one, which is a very unhealthy attitude.

I agree @DuckonaBike and I'm sure she did go on to have a normal married life but I do understand that the ongoing virginity of Mary is important to Catholics.

The Bible ‘fits together’ because the writers of the New Testament were careful to construct Jesus as fulfilling as many OT prophecies as possible!

It's one way of explaining how Jesus could have had literal brothers while still keeping Mary as a virgin.

“The Perpetual Virginity of Mary - Why I changed my mind.” This 13 min video explains it much more eloquently than me and talks more about heos in Luke 1:25. Even the early reformers like John Calvin and Martin Luther believed it. “Scripture does not say or indicate that she later lost her virginity… When Matthew says that Joseph did not know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her”

Another place heos crops up - “I am with you always, unto (heos) the end of the world” Matthew 28:20. So heos very much has a meaning of lasting endurance and eternity, rather than temporality.

Another suggestion that leads support to the idea of her perpetual virginity is Luke 1:28 at the annunciation. “Chaire kecharitōmenē” “Hail full of grace”. The root word is charitoō, to endow with grace, and kecharitōmenē is the perfect passive participle grammatical format. Thus it conveys that Mary was graced by God already, and the effects are ongoing and enduring. Whilst it doesn’t make explicit her subsequent virginity, it does underline her unique relationship with God that is consecrated, dedicated and eternal. Also, Mary is the mirror of Eve, and is Mary considered the “New Eve”. As Eve fell into a state of sin by disobeying God in the garden, and decay and fragmentation entered the world, Mary is the exaltation through her spiritual motherhood to humanity with her lifelong purity and obedience to God. She helps lead us to eternal salvation, rejoining with God and holiness through her fullness of grace and bearing the incarnate Logos who came into the world as a man to save sinners. Mary’s enduring grace and holiness goes hand in hand with the indwelling of God in her womb and in the world. She didn't become just a regular mother after the nativity, through the usual carnal means.

To the previous poster, yes Joseph was a widower and had children from his previous marriage, according to the protoevangelium of James (around 6:30 in the video).

@DogandMog That was very interesting
The second link worked better for me

The really interesting thing about the wise men, is that they were from the East, therefore of pagan/ gentile origin. The Jewish people who should have known He was coming and made appropriate preparations, didn’t

Mary can’t be a perpetual virgin as she bore children by Joseph.

Mary did not ascend into Heaven, and even if she did, Jesus says He is the way, not He and Mary are the way, there is only One name in all the heavens and earth by which you can be saved

@PraiseHim Gosh it gets boring going over why Joseph may have had children from a different marriage. Or that the same word was used for siblings as cousins in those days.

Nobody at all is saying we can be saved through Mary. She is a conduit to Our Lord, not equal to him.

I really don’t understand why some people seem to hate Mary, the Mother of Jesus.
To me it’s pretty amazing that a Mother is celebrated in this way, without elevating her to actual Divinity